The idea that you go off shooting prisoners, or anyone else is not on, and quite honestly... far fetched. In "A Private in The Guards" by Stephen Graham about the Scots Guards in The Great War when doing Lewis Gun training at Caterham, his Instructors tell him, "If the Germans try to surrender FORGET TO TAKE YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER!" There are many many instances from WW1 & WW2 or British troops shooting prisoners either whilst in the act of surrenedering or shortly after. Australians in WW1 had a trick of putting grenades in Germans pockets and telling them to run for it then laughing as they blew up.(Don't ask me where I read that, it was afew years ago.) I know of a WW2 4th Wilts soldier being told at gunpoint by some British soldiers to leave a wounded German alone he just come across as they wanted to sort him out. From Private Young's War Geoff Young 4th Wilts, 43rd Wessex. When I arrived yet another German paratrooper appeared, coming down some stairs on the outside of a house. I was getting used to these chance encounters but I think this time the German was more shocked than I was. He had ben slightly wounded and had his weapon slung round his neck. I beckoned him to me. He came over and immediately surrendered. Unlike the previous prisoner he could speak quiet good English. Then, unbelievingly, as I was speaking two shots rang outand the poor chap fell to the ground, shot in the stomach. l looked up and spotted two English soldiers from another regiment standing there, "Bloody hell" I said "you've shot a prisoner." I knelt down and applied two field dressings to try and stem the bleeding. As I was doing so I felt a tommy gun muzzle being pressed against the back of my neck, hard against the painful spot where I had been shot a few months earlier. A voice said "Bloody well help him and you're a dead man." My mind was in a whirl, I couldn't believe this was happening, I was furious. But then luckily, Capt Hamilton the MO suddenly appeared and as I looked up I saw a Sergeant, also from the other regiment , and the two men running away. Capt Hamilton looked at the wound and told me that there was little chance of saving him. As I went back to the poor unfortunate fellow he held out his hand and said, "Tommy, danke schon- for you the Iron Cross." These touching words, from a soldier who, until fifteen minutes earlier had been my enemy, left me with a mixture of both pride and sadness. Although he was a dying man his words lifted the anger in me and I momentarily forgot about the Sergeant and what he and his men had done. After all one had to wonder what had made them react in that way. Perhaps they had witnessed something similar against a comrade of theirs. It was wrong, sure, but I decided not to pursue the matter. A Grenadier Guard Veteran of WW1 also told me they always shot captured German snipers. I suppose these are instances DURING combat which are slightly different to shooting prisoners behind the Lines.
Owen is perfectly right, anyone killed captured soldiers.The german did,the british did, the americans did.If your friend die infront of your eyes you will be full with anger and maybe just maybe you will seek revenge.The russians are the perfect example, many of there perents were killed during 1941-42 and then the Russians unload anything on the germans 1943-45. A lot of german civilians were killed the soviet artilary fire at civil buildings and didn't care who die,if it is german it is alright. There are no saints in the war..
I know we hear all about these stories, We get the lot The time we were invaded. German Paras dropped. never happened. Its rather like King Arthur and Robin Hood. What we did know was the Germans murdering our men in cold blood. The enemy get shot if they make a false move while surrendering, They had a dirty trick of coming out their foxholes waving a white bit of rag. then when you went to take them prisoner, another would open up with a Mc gun and cut our men down. They also booby trapped a great many of their own dead, IT was always the drill to put a rope around the feet and pull from a safe distance. That the British were no Saints there is no doubt, But they DO NOT go around shooting prisoners. They may in films from Holltwood but not in real life. What does surprise me is how little folk here know about the British Army. how it is run, and what the discipline is like, It is not unknown for military personal to be charged.......Or have none of you noticed that? You should have done there have beenseveral cases in recent years. Being a down to earh realist, I sometimes wonder of these tales we hear are not a bit of romancing after a few too many drinks??? From the beaches of Normandy to the German border, and having taken part, as part of monty's Ironsides, in every single offensive..at no time did I ever hear, or witness, a prisoner being shot, If an SS man had too much to say, and they did have a lot to say! he may well be given a clout but even then he would have to PUSH his luck. During my time I have seen a great deal of Normandy having been "Loaned out" It is up to you to accept my word, or not, its completely up to you. Sapper
But they DO NOT go around shooting prisoners. They may in films from Holltwood but not in real life. Not as a general rule they don't, I agree, but there are always the individual cases which have happened in practically every war that the British Army has been involved in, even in the 20th Century!!! (I take it you've forgotten about the Longdon enquiry (to quote a recent(ish) case) that, thankfully, didn't make it big news because the Toms of III Para (quite rightly) kept their gobs shut?). Funnily enough, the Brits shooting prisoners isn't really shown much in Hollywood films (none that I can recall anyway, apart from those depicting the American War of Indipendance). What does surprise me is how little folk here know about the British Army. how it is run, and what the discipline is like, A little harsh that, I thought. Many people on here never had the opportunity or inclination to try the British Army first hand. Others have quite a lot of experience of it. One thing that's for certain though is that the experience of those who served in it is as varied as the people themselves.You can never really say "it was like this..." because someone else would have experienced possibly the same thing differently (or at least seen it through different eyes). It is not unknown for military personal to be charged.......Or have none of you noticed that? You should have done there have beenseveral cases in recent years. Oh, I know alright. My former platoon commander was up for manslaughter (basically because the powers that be hold him ultimately responsible for a few squaddies kicking a prisoner to death) recently. I don't know the result, or even if his DSO was being forfeited for it. Being a down to earh realist, I sometimes wonder of these tales we hear are not a bit of romancing after a few too many drinks??? Many tales brought home definately are. Many aren't though (my uncle mentioned earlier was a committed teetotaler BTW). From the beaches of Normandy to the German border, and having taken part, as part of monty's Ironsides, in every single offensive..at no time did I ever hear, or witness, a prisoner being shot You might not have, but that doesn't go to say that others didn't either! Dave
I can tell you with some authority, that summary executions were very much a reality by Australian soldiers in the pacific. It was understood by the commanders that almost all Japanese soldiers would be shot outright. In fact many soldiers loathed soldiers who showed compassion, because they would have do the killing for them. It was such a feature in the pacific, that special orders had to be given by commanders - 'to take prisoners', for intelligence purposes. I have spoken to many veterans who have confirmed this. My grandfather told my father, that 'Australian units did not take prisoners, including his'. The Australians in contrast had much respect for the Germans and went out of there way to treat German prisoners well in early stages of the war, as a veteran told me 'the Germans looked after our guys, so we did the same'. The war in the pacific was whole other matter, given the gruesome treatment of the Japanese (including cannibalism).
Lance Corporal Lawrence Greggain, 5th Battalion, Border Regiment."I was venomous against the Germans. I saw what they'd done to old people, women and children, and I thought, 'You bloody bastards! You don't deserve any mercy!' So I said to my lads, 'Now get this, and get it clearly. If any of you ever takes a prisoner, I'll bayonet you to the bloody prisoner..." From: 'Forgotten Voices of the Blitz and Battle of Britain' and relating to the 1940 retreat to Dunkirk.
my mate told me he seen the kids from the so called fighting waffen ss being shot,after they surenderd,he hated those b######s.yours,4th wilts.
Now! If you said they fought to the death, with no quarter asked or given? Then I will go along with that. But deliberate cold blooded shooting of prisoners Daft! Germans do that matey! If I captured a German Soldier (Not SS) I would light a cigarette, stick it in his mouth, hands on his head and point the way back...On his own! One happy German Prisoner! puffing away merrily. The SS? escorted and watched, they would try it on.. arrogant lot. But you can relate the Hollywood versions as much as you like. The British army would come down on you like a ton of bricks. The British army expect the men to have shaved and washed no matter what the conditions were like. If you are to be killed? you will be killed looking clean and neat! It is pretty obvious that few folk have the faintest idea of the discipline in the British Army. Germans? Thing is the poor devils give theirselves up.... why shoot them. If you had said that during the hellish shambles of a bloody action someone got killed that might have given up? Sure thing, it happens.. OK. But the British Army would never tolerate shooting men in cold blood . THAT IS MURDER. Not on my old sausages! Not on. That is what the Germans do....sadly, it is very well documented. As are all the other thousands of atrocities that they committed. The question was did the Germans fight to defend their land? Why? Who was attacking them? France? Belgium? Holland? Poland? Russia? Yugoslavia? Denmark? North Africa? Italy? Norway? Britain? Come off it.... they adored their leader. It was lovely when they were winning? Multitudes turned out to stick their arms in the air.. like railway signals..... Prats! As to liking them? Why? They caused the deaths and murders of 60 million innocent folk, they murdered thousands in the death camps, they tortured, raped and slaughtered the innocents where ever they went. They murdered Russian POWs by the thousands........ Like them? All my life I have had to put up with the terrible injuries I sustained in the war to return the continent to peace. To lift the dark medieval age that had descended on the peoples of Europe. Do I like them? What short memories some of you have...Wake up? That prompts the question of the Germans supporters here.... Are you Barking mad? Sapper
Years ago I read an article which suggested that soldiers on the Eastern front were given a choice and in one unit 3 men did remove themselves and without any disadvantage . Their colleagues took part and spent the rest of the day throwing up and getting drunk . This article was starting to suggest that most German units would have witnessed or have been involved in these incidents . There were long lists of the middle classes ; professional classes and aristocrats to be murdered in each country . (How many were on the UK list ). And that was apart from everyone else who didn't "fit" . It must have been very difficult not to know what was happening , and probably difficult to avoid taking part , without standing out . Maybe a lot of the men would have been afraid of looking wimpish in front of their peers ?
The Western Allies did not burn civilians alive inside a church, did not shoot POWs by the thousands nor arrested nazi civil-servants and summarily shoot them. Since when are the allied soldiers saints ? There aren't winners in the war Dresden bombing, Battle for Berlin, bombs over Sofia, etc. does any of those facts ring a bell ? Its so stupid to point finger at the others. One more thing, as i aways said "History is written by the winners" Dani
Don't talk like an idiot! Dresden? What about Dresden? have look at the indiscriminate V1s and V2s that rained down on England, killing many thousands of innocent civilians. Or all the other bombing raids that attacked our land night after night killing many thousands of innocent folk. They started the wind, and boasted about it They loved it WHEN THEY WERE WINNING! But then.....they reaped the whirlwind. They also started the theory of TOTAL WAR, Goebbels was screaming to his followers.."Do you want total war? YA! YA! YA! Heil Hitler." Then moaned when it was visited on them. The evil lot got what they wanted "total war" They asked for it..They got it. The apologist for the wrongs of the Third Reich and its people on this site. None of them took part in our struggle for survival...When we stood alone, the last outpost of freedom in the European Continent. Just thank your lucky stars that you are not in the Fatherland, being worked to death on starvation rations. Or that your parents have not vanished into the death camps. Or that you Girl friend has been deported for the use of the SS. How little you know.....This was an evil empire based on murder and killing in every sphere...... Sapper.
Im not saying german soldiers aren't animals that they are.And im not defending them! My point is that the allied soldiers aren't some kind of angles who come from the sky to save the day. Allied armys raped,killed,bombed,burned,rape again, kill again and so on.. My grandfather fought against the allied bombers who come here to bomb Sofia (the capital), he didn't fight against them because he liked germans more, he didn't fought because he was one of those people who want total war, he didn't fought with them because he hated England or USA, he fought against them because his family was somewhere there in this city where the bombs were falling down like a rain killing not germans, not nazis or SS, killing normal innocent people who dont even know why somebody from the end of the world came to bomb there houses. Anybody bombed anybody in this war germans bombed russian citys killing so many people, then the russians bombed Berlin and killed the half of the population there and then raped and murderd the other half.. Sapper, with all my respect, tell me who started the war, who left Germany to suffer after ww1 ? Who left the people in germany to die from starvation, and who expected that they will stay there quiet and just live a normal life? Of course im not accusing nobody here, but think about it a little, of course Hitler was crazy and he wanted to rule the whole world, but why the people chosed him ? Wasn't they just desperate? Dani
Lads, this is an interesting discussion but lets just remember to keep it peaceful and respectful. The last thing we want is for it to get personal in any way so this is just a wee pointer. as our esteemed Mod Von Poop has in his sig "Its only the Internet". Carry on!
If you go to war against a Nation, then expect war to be visited on you. Trouble is so many these days have very short memories.. I have a long memory....... The British army is disciplined... To compare them with our enemies, is not only stupid in the extreme, it is downright dishonest and an insult. We went to war to remove the disgusting stench, and utterly evil of the Nazi Regime and its acolytes. Its allies! Those that were prepared to go along with, and fight alongside these evil people, in the hope of getting the rewards and tit bits that the Nazis might toss to them. Britain only went to war after supreme efforts had been made to preserve the peace. And after the invasion of Poland. The Sudetenland. Danzig and the Checkoslovakia were already overrun. If you feed at the devils table? Then you are seen as one of them! If you fight alongside them? Then you get what any enemy must expect..... War in all its savagery. I would also point out that we were sending supplies to Germany after the war, when we were ourselves bankrupt after six years of war around trhe Globe. If you dont like the heat? Stay out the kitchen! Sapper
I would like to point out that of the combatants in WW2 the most principled nations were Britain and France! Yes France! Both these countries went to war with Nazi Germany because of the unprovoked attack on Poland. It always seems that the French can be the butt of jokes about WW2 but it should not be forgotten that they honored their alliance with Poland. The fact that neither nation achieved the original aim of the war is sometimes missed. To his credit Churchill recognised the threat of the Soviet Union in 1944 and tried unsuccessfully to warn Roosevelt. Having said that I dont feel that the Firebombing of Dresden or Hamburg was Britains "finest Hour" and it doesnt matter who started it, in MY HUMBLE OPINION it was wrong.
England, a great country maybe one of the strongest powers in Europe so many years, one of the greatest army in 17-18-19 century. Civilized country and politically strong country. Bulgaria, small country maybe the powerful on the Balkans, fought many savage wars on the Balkans 1885 against the Serbians, 1912 in the Balkans war against the Ottomans 1913 Bulgaria fought against Romania, Serbia, Greece and the ww1 come. The country was terribly weaken, after the reparations that were wanted from Bulgaria, and we lost many territory. Who the people blame ? The king, he wasn't even bulgarian after all. Then ww2 come and the nazis come on the borders of Bulgaria asking us to let them in peacfully or they would invade us like most of the countrys in Europe. What Bulgaria can do? Fought another war against superior enemy, in the first years of the war German army was unstopable, france didn't stoped them, england didn't stoped them, and many eastern countrys. We were going to stop them ? I don't think we could, as i said we were terribly weaken after ww1. Thats why we are recognized as german allies, but we never helped them, we never invaded any other country, and we didn't attack any country during ww2. Do i blame the government? Of course i do, they did terrible mistake not to stay natural, but Bulgaria is a country with huge strategy value, we are the end of Europe and next to Black sea where the germans had interest in lunching attacks on USSR. No doubtedly the english army is one of the greatest in the world now and then, but not every country is England, not every country can oppose to german army.France couldn't, Poland,Belgium,Ukraine,Holland,Ygoslavia,Denmark,Czech-Slovakia, i don't think that we had a chance. PS: Im sorry Gotthard Heinrici im trying to be as respectful as i could. Dani
the greek army fought the italians,and the germans.they probably knew the germans would overrun and occupy them,but they still defended and fought for their lives.yours,4th wilts.
After ww1 Bulgarian army was reduced to 30 000 soldiers, enough only to protect the borders. I believe that answers to your accusations wilts. By the way italian army is the weakest army ever to face the world, sorry but this is fact. Balkans are 80% mountains, and even the Ottoman Empire couldn't conquer the whole Balkans. It is really hard to fight on this kind of place. When the greek army beaten the italians, they were sure that they can hold up against the germans too. Ah and one more thing, Greek had the support of England. Not only with soldiers, but weapons and supplys. Dani
