I'm genuinely surprised that people can't wait 'a day or so' before adding stuff. Doesn't seem very long to me at all considering the thing was started nearly 4 years ago. Merging this thread in with the original. Cheers, Adam.
Having looked back through the threads I think the discussion has come down to two seperate issues and both should be kept seperate. 1. were all Germans culpable and 2. were all Allies actions above reproach? Please note that I am not trying to compare the Allies with the Germans. I think to do so is wrong which is why I am trying to seperate them! I hope I am making sense.
And i think that when we speak about history and a whole nation of people ,we shouldn't let our emotions to shadow our view. As i said to Von Poop we must be natural, i know that most of the vets here can't keep there emotions and i understand that, but this is just a forum and we are all different people with different points of view, so what im trying to say is keep it civil mates, i don't want to argue(especially with veterans that i have a huge respect for them) i want discussion Dani
I met an SS in this Country after the war. He was still the arrogant and boastful bit of filth that they had been during the war years. I could have willingly kicked him to death....but I would have gone to prison for making the earth a cleaner place to live in. He made no bones about what they had done to the people they had invaded. Even boasted about it. Then I met another old Junkers with a square head in Majorca. He told me "You have von ze var ! Ve have von ze peace" Herr obergruppenfuhrer. But there is a lighter side, for on the island I met an old "One armed WW2 Black Watch Colonel" He had a wicked sense of humour. Staying at the Hotel was an elderly German Judge, The Colonel had been teaching this old German judge how to greet a Scot. The wording he was teaching him in dialect was "Up your Kilt Jock" Sapper Sapper
This one is for Ron. I had been back in England for some time. The injuries were so severe that they showed no sign of healing, after many months of treatment. many more long and painful months were to pass before I rejoined civilisation. The army had moved me closer to home at Poole Hospital. While there and with my left leg a horrible mess and due for amputation. I talked the Ward Sister into letting me get home for a visit. The train journey was agony. I had just come out of the station at my home town. Where there was a lorry full of German prisoners pulled in. As I drew near, they recognised me as a war injured soldier and started cat calls and jeering. All of them gathered behind the lorry tailboard. As I walked by the tailboard I hoisted one of my old fashioned padded crutches, caught it at the point of balance and swung it at the prisoners. One of them having a lot to say, was bent over the tailboard and caught the full force of the swinging crutch right on the side of the jaw...... Out like a light matey ....Bingo! He was draped over the side of the tailboard like a wet rag.......OUT !... Sadly, two policemen had watched this and arrested me for assaulting a prisoner. Trouble was, it took me a hell of a time just to walk a few yards, and the police station was about two hundred yards away, took me ages to get there. They sat me on a seat for half an hour, and then shoved me out the door. Thing is that German must have a sore head ...And if I tried that another hundred times it would not have worked... Pleasant feeling though! There were many more long months and years before I got back. and through the help of a genius The man that invented the hip joint operation that is so common today. Sir John bless him! Sapper
Sapper What did they try to charge you with, assault with a deadly crutch ? Dani You say "we shouldn't let our emotions shadow our view" Whilst trying to be polite and without wishing to prolong this already overlong discussion, I think you ask too much. My personal emotions regarding the actions of the Third Reich will always affect my judgement for all or any of the following reasons: In the space of six years the Holocaust resulted in the massacre of six million of my co-religionists and, within the same timescale, the Belgian side of my extended family was complely wiped out.. In March 1945 my immediate family lost a much loved son and brother who was serving in the RAF. My wife, as a child, had the trauma of having a bomb destroy her home while she was still in it. Because of the Third Reich my closely knit family was scattered to the winds and life was never to be the same. To close, I see that you also say "i don't want to argue(especially with veterans that i have a huge respect for them) i want discussion" That's fine by me, I am more than happy to discuss until the cows come home but in the interests of my (and Brian's) blood pressure PLEASE, everyone, no more comparisons regarding the ethos of the British Army compared to that of the wartime Germanic Forces. Cheers Ron
AMEN to all that. MY family paid a terrific price both in WW1 and again in WW2. During the time in action I never knew of a single action od cruelty against the enemy. That does not include ACTION where you are trying your best to rid the world of this Nazi infection. Finally what we do get was the blame for the Germans actions. before we drove them out of a village, they would drag the contents of the house into the street destroying everything or spoiling it beyond repair. When we took over, the mess was there for all to see and I think we got blamed for it. Was there the odd revenge? I think that is sure. But I can say that I never saw one instance of acts of vandalism or anything like it. WHY? we were there to give the country back to its owner not to destroy it. Sapper
Im sorry for bringing this sad emotions that you feel Ron. As i said i understand the veterans, the pain that was done by the germans can't and must not be forgiven. Sapper, sadly the germans are still arrogant even today, i was there last year, and they aways discriminated me, and you know what is sad, they didn't discriminated me because i was Bulgarian(im used to that), they did it because im slavic, actually i couldn't believe that most of them are still racist. And isn't arrogant enough that there youth don't even know what happen 1939-1945 ? Dani
Brian : you should of fisted him in the nutz and thereupon grinning slyly said " oooooooops sorry mate my hand must have slipped
My best mate was a turn of the century South African war RSM. Sapper I would be interested to know who the South African RSM is? I am a South African by the way. Cheers
RSM Humphries was English. Sorry mate! It was my poor phrasing that made it appear he was a South African, Love South Africa. Spent six weeks there on holiday. Always wanted to go back. Drakenburgs. Joburg, Pretoria, Kruger. Gods window. Three Rondavels. Oliphants! Wonderful.... Sapper
it must also remember that many of us have family who were directly involved in the war.my grandad fought in nw europe,and must have seen awful things.yet he was the finest man i ever knew,quiet and generous,in fact he was more than just my grandad,he was my hero,and still is.yours,lee.
I would like to point out that of the combatants in WW2 the most principled nations were Britain and France! Yes France! Both these countries went to war with Nazi Germany because of the unprovoked attack on Poland. It always seems that the French can be the butt of jokes about WW2 but it should not be forgotten that they honored their alliance with Poland. The fact that neither nation achieved the original aim of the war is sometimes missed. To his credit Churchill recognised the threat of the Soviet Union in 1944 and tried unsuccessfully to warn Roosevelt. Having said that I dont feel that the Firebombing of Dresden or Hamburg was Britains "finest Hour" and it doesnt matter who started it, in MY HUMBLE OPINION it was wrong. wow I always thought we yanks were hotheads but the Brits just put us to shame. I Agree with GH here and also croonart's posts. Te British army didn't have a monopoly on virtue or discipline. There were plenty of soldiers in Vietnam (or choose any combat theatre) who never witnessed atrocties,t that they occurred and often is an established fact. Certainly the Brits were far better behaved than the Yanks in this area. I read that at Utah (or Omaha, I forget which) it was a standing order to take no prisoners which is interesting since may of the defenders in Normandy were "forced volunteers". In point of fact according to SHAEF's own documents the behavior of American troops in France was far from laudable. Those of you who feel the allies record is umblemished by war crimes need to read Norman Davies "The War in Europe". The "stategic" bombing campaign was a terror war against civilians. "The Bomber Barons" by Max Hastings. "Dehousing Germans" as it was reffered too. Sorry folks bu a war crime is a war crime regardless of the cause in which it's commited. "Is it moral to kill 100,000 civilians in an 8 hour bombing raid to acheive a just end. I don't know. But we did it." Robert MacNamara, The Fog of War.
There are times when we get mad dogs tearing at everything they see, The answer? Put them down.! After the atrocities that the German nation committed. it is a wonder to me that there were any allowed to be alive after the war. Let me repeat: the war that Germany started cost the lives of 60,000,000, Does anyone really think that they paid the price for those deaths that they and they alone are responsible for? I think not... If rightful revenge had visited the German nation? there would have been sixty million of them dead...As it was, they got away relatively lightly, after what they did, Does anyone know how many death camps or concentration camps there was? My only trouble is that I still recall the stench of their evil. We never wanted war and like most, loathed the very idea. But when faced with such disgusting animals what do you do? The answer is simple PUT THEM DOWN. We did just that. The amazing thing about all this is this...Were they ashamed of their crimes? No mate..Not a bit of it. Sapper
There are times when we get mad dogs tearing at everything they see, The answer? Put them down.! After the atrocities that the German nation committed. it is a wonder to me that there were any allowed to be alive after the war. Let me repeat: the war that Germany started cost the lives of 60,000,000, Does anyone really think that they paid the price for those deaths that they and they alone are responsible for? I think not... If rightful revenge had visited the German nation? there would have been sixty million of them dead...As it was, they got away relatively lightly, after what they did, Does anyone know how many death camps or concentration camps there was? My only trouble is that I still recall the stench of their evil. We never wanted war and like most, loathed the very idea. But when faced with such disgusting animals what do you do? The answer is simple PUT THEM DOWN. We did just that. The amazing thing about all this is this...Were they ashamed of their crimes? No mate..Not a bit of it. Sapper My admiration for this post Sapper. I share your opinion, todays germans don't feel a bit guilty for what they fathers and grandfathers did to the whole world.What is the sentence for 60 million killed ? Death maybe ? Dani
You know what lads? Revenge is all very well but putting down an entire race? Well thats why we're not Nazis. So to kill them all would be the proper thing to do? Then you would be no better than them - so thats why it didnt happen. Destroy the system not the people. If we're going to talk about killing off races well then lets put the Japanese up against a wall after the Germans because they annihilated millions of Chinese as well as Western Soldiers and countless other Asian people. If you wonder why any Germans were left alive because of the Third Reich then you'd better wonder about the thousands of Europeans that flocked to its banner. I'm sorry but its a ridiculous thing to state that an entire race should be put down. Actually its a little bit unsettling.
dont agree with clensing germany,but letting them know this will never be tolerated again in no uncertain terms,yes.yours,lee.
dont agree with clensing germany,but letting them know this will never be tolerated again in no uncertain terms,yes.yours,lee. Why don't you say that staying in front of big grave full with jews killed by the nazis.Or you just want to wait until they wipe out 60 million of people again ? Heinrici, when a nation want to destroy a whole other nation that you belong to, you will fight back.Im slavic, germans hated slavic-people and killed them by any possible way. I don't want there race destroyed, but i think they shouldn't be allowed to have a country after the war. Look at Germany now, they don't remember the war, and they act like nothing took place.Like they didn't killed millions of jews, and wiping out half of my race. They arroganse is so huge that they don't even admit that. When the jews are requesting reparations for those killings that took place ww2, the germans says that they are over reacting and so on.. Look at that arrogans just look at it.. Dani
No one is suggesting for a moment that the race should be killed off. What I am saying is that the Nation got off comparatively lightly considering the crimes they were responsible for. You have to remember that post war, although we had precious little food ourselves, we still sent a lot to the Germans. I repeat what I posted earlier,,Considering what atrocities they committed they got off lightly. I also stated that had they paid quid pro quo there would be sixty million German dead. In the round their leaders (that they worshipped!) led them down the path of utter destruction. Remember this when putting your point of view: It was Goebbels and the German nation that called for TOTAL WAR Not us...They got it................TOUGH! Sapper
