South African POWs in Italy

Discussion in 'South African' started by Russelle, Jun 6, 2010.

  1. Cunnama

    Cunnama Junior Member

    Hi,

    Thank you so much for your quick response, I greatly appreciate it.

    With regard to Swales. I have found his death record on the cwgc site:

    Name: SWALES, ALLAN COURTNEY
    Initials: A C
    Nationality: South African
    Rank: Corporal
    Regiment/Service: Umvoti Mounted Rifles, S.A. Forces
    Age: 26
    Date of Death: 22/05/1945
    Service No: 5428
    Additional information: Son of Fred C. Swales and Mabel E. Swales, of Durban.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Mil. Sec. Grave 336.
    Cemetery: JOHANNESBURG (WEST PARK) CEMETERY

    I'm not sure if that helps?

    Also if you have a moment I would greatly appreciate any information on my other Grandfather. Norman William Muller. He was not a prisoner of war at any stage and I'm not sure what unit he served under but I believe it was based in Cape Town.

    Kind Regards,
    Daniel
     
  2. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Slip of the digit I am afraid as the man is not on the list I refered to.
    It was Swales C.M I quoted.

    Perhaps you would be able to find more in later lists, but as I say none are 100%

    Brian

    Hi,

    Thank you so much for your quick response, I greatly appreciate it.

    With regard to Swales. I have found his death record on the cwgc site:

    Name: SWALES, ALLAN COURTNEY
    Initials: A C
    Nationality: South African
    Rank: Corporal
    Regiment/Service: Umvoti Mounted Rifles, S.A. Forces
    Age: 26
    Date of Death: 22/05/1945
    Service No: 5428
    Additional information: Son of Fred C. Swales and Mabel E. Swales, of Durban.
    Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference: Mil. Sec. Grave 336.
    Cemetery: JOHANNESBURG (WEST PARK) CEMETERY

    I'm not sure if that helps?

    Also if you have a moment I would greatly appreciate any information on my other Grandfather. Norman William Muller. He was not a prisoner of war at any stage and I'm not sure what unit he served under but I believe it was based in Cape Town.

    Kind Regards,
    Daniel
     
  3. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    1559 Pte Dennis Patrick Cunnama U.M.R.

    Captured Tobruk 21/6/1942 and in transit Libya until 11/7/1942
    Camp 85 Tuturano July until Aug 1942
    Camp 60 Lucca Aug until Nov 1942
    Camp 65 Gravina Nov 1942 until Apr. 1943
    Camp 62/26 Busto Arsizio BERGAMO Apr until Sept. 1943
     
  4. Cunnama

    Cunnama Junior Member

    Wow! Thats amazing!

    I can't thank you enough, and your 1000th post too!

    Thank you,
    Daniel
     
  5. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    There is more Daniel.
    1,00 Posts; to be honest I hadn't noticed.

    Wow! Thats amazing!

    I can't thank you enough, and your 1000th post too!

    Thank you,
    Daniel
     
  6. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member Patron

    Well Daniel, ADM199 has beaten me to it and to be honest you are in the best of hands with him.:)

    And yes his 1000th post too!!:D

    Attached are the pages relating to your relatives, the info is the same as ADM199 gave, with Camp 65 being listed for the period (August 1943). No Swales I'm afraid.

    Hopefully it will be useful and nice to have their names on a document for future research.

    Good luck

    Steve
     

    Attached Files:

  7. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    "Walked out of Camp on the 10th September 1943 and stopped with Bortola BOLIS at Tira Asegno. Ponte St. Pietro. Prov. Bergamo.until 1/10/1943"

    Spent 2 days with resistance and then moved on to stay with:-

    Giovanni RIVA Drogherie, Ambirere, Prov. Bergamo. who put him in contact with a guide from the "DIANNA" Organisation.

    Caught Train from Ambirere to Tirano.
    Walked 22 hrs and crossed Border into Switzerland. He was interrogated 23rd January 1944.

    That's about all there is Daniel
     
  8. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    As I have said before Steve the File is dangerously inaccurate for anyone not aware of its short comings.

    As you will see the man was in two Camps prior to the one given in the File and one after.
     
  9. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member Patron

    As I have said before Steve the File is dangerously inaccurate for anyone not aware of its short comings.

    As you will see the man was in two Camps prior to the one given in the File and one after.

    I understand the potential for errors Brian and you are right to point that out, but if it were me personally, I would want all the documentary evidence I could find.

    An error in spelling amongst the Japanese index card records cost me 3 years, before I stumbled across my Grandad's card whilst searching for someone else's.:D
     
  10. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    Steve I have explained at great lengths the flaws in the File, and others.

    What would you say to someone you gave information to from the File that came back many months later, saying that they had found out the person had died in 1942 before ever reaching Italy.

    How would you explain that.

    I know the names of all those listed in the File who never reached Italy so can say with confidence that someone searching with information I gave them is not looking in the wrong direction.
    Information like that given to Daniel perhaps would have taken many months to find. That is if he originally knew where to look

    Inaccurate information is worse than none at all.




    I understand the potential for errors Brian and you are right to point that out, but if it were me personally, I would want all the documentary evidence I could find.

    An error in spelling amongst the Japanese index card records cost me 3 years, before I stumbled across my Grandad's card whilst searching for someone else's.:D
     
  11. Springbok

    Springbok Junior Member

    Hi Daniel.

    I'm not sure where you are based, but have you tried obtaining their military record from the South African Defence Force Archives yet?

    Their e-mail address is sandfdoc@mweb.co.za

    They are not electronic but they will send you a copy of the military records by post.
    I obtained same on my father-in-law and mother-in-law earlier this year, no questions asked and completely free of charge, even the postage was free! Although I'm not sure if they will post info overseas.

    Give them a try.

    Regards

    Ivan.
     
  12. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member Patron

    Steve I have explained at great lengths the flaws in the File, and others.

    What would you say to someone you gave information to from the File that came back many months later, saying that they had found out the person had died in 1942 before ever reaching Italy.

    How would you explain that.

    I know the names of all those listed in the File who never reached Italy so can say with confidence that someone searching with information I gave them is not looking in the wrong direction.
    Information like that given to Daniel perhaps would have taken many months to find. That is if he originally knew where to look

    Inaccurate information is worse than none at all.

    Hi Brian,

    I am not trying to argue with you here and I do not claim to have the knowledge that you possess on this subject. But I would hate to think that there was someone out there who had something that might be able to assist my research, but was too concerned that it might be incorrect, and so never gave me the opportunity to find out.

    All I do here is try to help out. Anyway I think we should leave it there as we are in danger of cluttering up Daniel's post with our banter.:)
     
  13. ADM199

    ADM199 Well-Known Member

    I was in touch over 10yrs ago and can confirm Major Keene was extremely helpful.

    I did make a voluntary donation to cover P & P to the U.K.

    Brian

    Hi Daniel.

    I'm not sure where you are based, but have you tried obtaining their military record from the South African Defence Force Archives yet?

    Their e-mail address is sandfdoc@mweb.co.za

    They are not electronic but they will send you a copy of the military records by post.
    I obtained same on my father-in-law and mother-in-law earlier this year, no questions asked and completely free of charge, even the postage was free! Although I'm not sure if they will post info overseas.

    Give them a try.

    Regards

    Ivan.
     
  14. Cunnama

    Cunnama Junior Member

    Hi Ivan, Steve, Brian,

    Thanks again for your assistance, the information you have provided is incredible

    Ivan, thank you for that suggestion I have sent them an email and hopefully I have some similar success there.

    Brian, thank you for your concerns regarding providing me with accurate information. I can understand how it may be upsetting to receive false hope. I am fortunate I guess in that all the men I am researching returned home alive(with the exception of Swales), so it is just a matter of filling in their wartime experiences, rather than locating lost relatives.

    I know I am pushing my luck but since I have had such success can I add the name of my Great uncle to the list? I know very little about him other than that he was a German prisoner of war and had a terrible experience there. He was never really the same I don't think. His name was Percy Dyason.

    Kind Regards,
    Daniel
     
  15. tarquini

    tarquini Member

    hello,

    I have a complete list of SA pows in Italy.
    The men you list were in the following camps.
    Dennis Patrick Cunnama PG 65 Gravina (near Altamura)
    Dennis Mack PG 65
    Allan Courtney Swales PG 54 Fara in Sabina (n. of Rome)
    Gerhardus Thomas Van der Walt PG 65


    Cheers
     
  16. Cunnama

    Cunnama Junior Member

    Hi Tarquini,

    Thanks for your input. I have found the above information in the Italy POw lists at the national archives in Kew, with the exception of Allan Courtney Swales, on which I have found nothing.

    Could you tell me where you found that information?

    Thanks,
    Daniel
     
  17. Cunnama

    Cunnama Junior Member

    Hi again,

    After looking through my records again, I'd guess that you made the same error as AMD199 on the previous page and made a mistake reading from the POW list.

    Thanks for you help anyway,
    Daniel
     
  18. ndlulamithi

    ndlulamithi Junior Member

    Hi Steve

    Any chance you could post the pages for "Sa" - I am looking for a Mike Sandys who was my great-uncle and served with the SA Irish. I know he ended up labouring in some mines in Silesia, but I'd love to know his movements before then.

    Regards
    Brad
     
  19. Errol

    Errol Junior Member

    Good Morning to you all.
    If anyone could help me find some information about my Grandfather, Mr William (Bill) Parrish. I'm not sure where he was based or anything else bout his time at war, this is why i'm interested to find out!
    I do know that he was captured and then escaped. more info i have none!

    If you possibly have any info i would really appreciate feed back.

    regards
    Errol Parrish
    East london
    South Africa
     
  20. Geotrac

    Geotrac Member

    Good Morning to you all.
    If anyone could help me find some information about my Grandfather, Mr William (Bill) Parrish. I'm not sure where he was based or anything else bout his time at war, this is why i'm interested to find out!
    I do know that he was captured and then escaped. more info i have none!

    If you possibly have any info i would really appreciate feed back.

    regards
    Errol Parrish
    East london
    South Africa

    Hi Errol, There is a "WH Parish" listed as a POW in Italy (1943) in the SA records, but not so sure how accurate this info is or whether this is the same person? I think Camp 54 is (er... was!) near a place called Fara in Sabrina. My grandfather (ML Foxcroft) was incidentally held there (camp 54) after being captured in Tobruk, I think on about 21 June 1942. He was alledgedly then moved to Stalag VIIIB in Poland. This camp was later called Stalag 344. I am also trying to trace his steps. See attached. Regards, George
     

    Attached Files:

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