South African POWs in Italy

Discussion in 'South African' started by Russelle, Jun 6, 2010.

  1. LeoneG

    LeoneG Member

    Hi there.

    Thank you so much for posting these, Bamboo. Found a few of the guys that I have been looking for, including my grandfather! :D

    Any chance of the ones covering E, F and S? Would be greatly appreciated.

    Kind regards,
    Leone
     
  2. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member Patron

    Hi Leone,

    I'll see what I can do.:)
     
  3. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Hello Bamboo and Leone,

    Just a word of warning about WO 392/21. I have posted this comment on another thread in which you are interested, Leone. :

    I have spent a lot of time analysing some official (War Ministry) Italian records which show 317 men being sent from Camp PG 82 to Germany in July 1943. I had a look in WO 392/21 and found that most of them were still on it, but they were no longer in Italy - they were already in Germany! Also, of the 317, only 42 are actually shown as being held in PG 82 - most of them are shown as being in PG 54 and the rest in other camps! So, it cannot be taken for granted that someone in WO 392/ 21 was still in Italy in August 1943, never mind in the camp stated in the document!!! In my (long) experience of dealing with WO 392/21, it shows a camp that the POW was in at some time during his captivity in Italy, nothing more.

    Another example. Corporal Bill Marsh of the South Wales Borderers is resgistered as being in the Military hospital Il Celio in Rome when he was in fact, in August 1943, in PG 54 Fara in Sabina. According to his diary he had been dismissed from the hospital some months previously.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2016
    LeoneG likes this.
  4. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member Patron

    Hi Vitellino,

    Thanks for that clarification about 392/21. I do always advise people that the info on it should read with caution. Thankfully, the file still has its uses, especially when families have nothing at all to go on, not even a Army service number.

    Best wishes

    Steve
     
    LeoneG likes this.
  5. LeoneG

    LeoneG Member

    Thanks Vitellino & Steve for the advice! Will definitely be careful when using 392/21 as a reference. For now I'm just trying to identify a few guys - rank, initials, service number. So if I have 5 possibles per 1 individual that I'm looking for, that at least narrows down the search for me. Since I'm doing genealogy (on geni.com) as a hobby, I can then take the search further there too looking for their descendants. Quite a mission to locate a few guys that my grandfather knew about 70 years ago, I know, but I'm lucky to have so many stories collected. The veterans generally don't like to talk about their experiences in the POW camps, and it took decades for my mother to get a relatively full story out of her father.
     
  6. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Hello Steve,

    WO 321/21 is an important starting point for a lot of enquiries as you say. However, even if those of us who use it regularly do warn people of its shortcomings some of them might overlook the warning in their new-found enthusiasm and then find they're 'barking up the wrong tree'.

    Best wishes,

    Vitellino
     
    bamboo43 likes this.
  7. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member Patron

    Thanks Vitellino,

    I totally agree. I am trying to step back from posting on questions in regards POW's of the Italians and leave these to you and the other more knowledgeable forum members on the subject matter.
     
  8. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Hello Bamboo,

    I don't claim to be any kind of an expert on POWs in Italy but know a lot about a few camps. have just written (in Italian on request from a local councillor ) a book about PG54 and another in English about POWs where I live in Umbria - camps PG 77, 115 and 115/3. I know a lot about the Camp for Mariners No.1 at Manziana and was down there in July with the grandson of the Camp Commander - by a sheer fluke the grandson just happens to have inherited a house overlooking the site of the former PG 52 at Coreglia Ligure. It was whilst doing this research that I came up against the problems with WO 392/21.

    Regarding PG 54, the best account on the camp was written by a South African, Sergeant Demetri Hayidakis, and can be downloaded from www.pg54.uk.org
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2016
    bamboo43 likes this.
  9. I know that this is a very old thread but so amazed to see my grandfather's signature here. Norman Heslop.
     
  10. HI I am looking for information on Norman Heslop (one of the signatures on the handkerchief)He is my grandfather. I always understood he was set free but when I read about camp PG82 Laterina a number of people escaped and then those from the camp were movedd to a German camp.. I could not see him on that list so was wondering if there is any further information or stories where he is mentioned.
    My mother had a ceramic work he brought back with the names of those who were with him painted on it. I will try and locate it to photograph and post here.
     
  11. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    For information - this may not be the person above, but is the only N Heslop in WO 392 - ie POW camps in Germany

    UK, British Prisoners of War, 1939-1945
    Name: N F Heslop
    Rank: Spr.
    Army Number: 83541
    POW Number: 224740
    Camp Type: Stalag
    Camp Number: 4D/Z
    Camp Location: Annaburg, Germany
    Section: South African Land Forces : Officers and Other Ranks

    Confirmation be Heather (or not as the case may be) would be helpful

    TD
     
  12. That sounds like it must be him. I will do some digging and confirm.
    Thank you so much.
    Heather
     
  13. My grandfather came home with this from Satalg IVD .
    Do you recognise any names?
    Thanks TD confirmed as
    Name: N F Heslop
    Rank: Spr.
    Army Number: 83541
    POW Number: 224740
    Camp Type: Stalag
    Camp Number: 4D/Z
    Camp Location: Annaburg, Germany
    Section: South African Land Forces : Officers and Other Ranks
     

    Attached Files:

  14. steved3811

    steved3811 Member

    Hi Bamboo

    Would it be possible to do a check to see if my cousin, H.W.D. Longden, features in your POW list?.

    He served with the SADF in North Africa and was made a POW and was sent to Italy and then Germany, but I don't have any other details.

    Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks
    Steve
     
  15. Bruneval

    Bruneval Well-Known Member

    Hi Steve,

    The National Archives hold two records for a South African POW named HWD Longden:

    File ref no: WO 416/226/456
    Name: H W D Longden.
    Date of Birth: 24/08/1899.
    Place of Birth: Gwelo.
    Service: [South African Army].
    Rank: 2nd Lieutenant.
    Regiment/Unit/Squadron: [Union Defence Force].
    Service Number: 73518.
    Date of Capture: [unspecified].
    Theatre of Capture: [unspecified].
    Camp Name/Number: Oflag IXA/Z Rotenburg Fulda.
    PoW number: 128846.
    Date of Death: [unspecified].
    Number of Photographs: 0.
    Number of Fingerprints: 0.
    Number of X-rays: 0.
    Number of Cards: 1.


    File ref no: WO 416/227/273
    Name: Horace Longden.
    Date of Birth: 24/08/1899.
    Place of Birth: South Africa.
    Service: South African Land Forces.
    Rank: Lieutenant.
    Regiment/Unit/Squadron: [unspecified].
    Service Number: 73518.
    Date of Capture: 23 March 1944.
    Theatre of Capture: Laterina.
    Camp Name/Number: Stalag VIIA Moosburg.
    PoW number: 128846.
    Date of Death: [unspecified].
    Number of Photographs: 0.
    Number of Fingerprints: 0.
    Number of X-rays: 0.
    Number of Cards: 2.

    Regards

    Bruneval
     
    steved3811 likes this.
  16. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member Patron

    Hi Steve,

    I have found your cousin on the Italian lists. As hopefully you will have read, these lists are known to include errors, so please bear this in mind. According to the list he was held a Camp 47, which is Modena. Forum member vitellino may be able to add more.

    See below all of his POW travels and a map of where the camps were located:


    Longden HWD Italy.jpg Longden HWD Germany.jpg Longden HWD Germany 2.jpg Prisoners_of_war_camps_in_Germany_in_World_War_II_(map_of_1944).png
     
  17. steved3811

    steved3811 Member

    Thanks for your help with this.

    kind regards
    Steve
     
  18. Hi, looking for any information on my grandfather Major James Stanley (Stan) Winn Rooke born 1 July 1906 in South Shields, Durham, England. Stan served as a major with the second battalion of the Transvaal Scottish or 2TS during 1941 and 1942. He was seconded to the British forces in 1941 and served in East Africa.
    He lived in Johannesburg most of his life and I was told by my mother that he was in Tobruk during the war and he was taken as a POW and possibly went to Italy or Germany.
    Any information greatly appreciated as he died in 1972.
    Thank you. Regards
    Susan
     
  19. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    dbf likes this.

Share This Page