1st. Battalion King's (Liverpool) Regt.

Discussion in 'Burma & India' started by Hutchy46, Aug 20, 2012.

  1. Hutchy46

    Hutchy46 Junior Member

    Hi. I am trying to track down the war diaries for this regiment for March 1944. Searching TNA only produces Nov-Dec 1944. During March 1944 they formed part of 77th. (Indian) Brigade Cols. 81 & 82 of the second chindit expedition. I wondered whether the war diaries were lost and if any meaningful information relating to 1 King's would appear in the Brigade war diary in the form of operational orders? Many thanks.
     
  2. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Hi. I am trying to track down the war diaries for this regiment for March 1944. Searching TNA only produces Nov-Dec 1944. During March 1944 they formed part of 77th. (Indian) Brigade Cols. 81 & 82 of the second chindit expedition. I wondered whether the war diaries were lost and if any meaningful information relating to 1 King's would appear in the Brigade war diary in the form of operational orders? Many thanks.

    Hi Hutchy,

    might be some info here: WO172/4436 thats 77th Brigade HQ diary. Large file though.:)
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I had a look for all of their diaries last night and they appear to be very fragmented. In most cases you only get a few months worth of diaries covering a whole year. Unless its something very specific you may be better off looking for a regimental history or the CAB 44 files.
     
  4. Hutchy46

    Hutchy46 Junior Member

    Thank you both for that. I will follow up both suggestions.
     
  5. Hebridean Chindit

    Hebridean Chindit Lost in review...

    WO 361 443 and WO 361 444 are the MIA reports that contain about as much as you are going to get... about 200 pages/notes... I have them but still working on dating/cropping...

    The primary diaries for the time are "missing" other than late '44 (5 pages) as discussed...

    77 IID diaries... 850 pages... ( too scared to start studying in case I find anything useful ;) )

    Still going through the 740 pages of 111 IID diaries but at least they are all dated now... some references there...
     
  6. Hutchy46

    Hutchy46 Junior Member

    Thank you Hebridean Chindit. Looks as though I need to study the published accounts.
     
  7. Hebridean Chindit

    Hebridean Chindit Lost in review...

    Thank you Hebridean Chindit. Looks as though I need to study the published accounts.

    Welcome to research Hell... ;)

    pm if you need help...
     
  8. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Hi Hutchy,

    Is there anything or anyone in particular you are interested in re: 1 KLR in Burma? I have a few of the Missing in Action reports for 1944, let me know if I can help.

    Steve
     
  9. impala_ood

    impala_ood Junior Member

    Hi Hutchy,

    Is there anything or anyone in particular you are interested in re: 1 KLR in Burma? I have a few of the Missing in Action reports for 1944, let me know if I can help.

    Steve

    Hello Steve and all

    I have a family member who died in Burma on or around 25 May 1944. He is Private 5885340 George Edward Payne. CWGC website confirms his name is recorded on the Rangoon Memorial. I have the attached telegram received by his Mother, my Great Grandmother, in 1946, confirming he was believed died of wounds on or shortly after 25 May 1944.

    How I am interpreting the telegram mentioned is that he would have been notified as missing in 1944, and it was only after the armistice when prisoners have been repatriated that the army could say with confidence he had indeed died.

    Do any of the records you have referred to mention George? Can you tell me anymore about what the 1st Kings (Liverpool) Battalion were doing on the 25th May 1944?

    As a family the story has always been passed down that he volunteered in some way to go to Burma, that he landed in the jungle in a glider, but beyond that we know nothing more.

    I'll be very grateful for any response.

    Rich
     

    Attached Files:

  10. impala_ood

    impala_ood Junior Member

    WO 361 443 and WO 361 444 are the MIA reports that contain about as much as you are going to get... about 200 pages/notes... I have them but still working on dating/cropping...



    Hello

    Do you know if WO 361 443 and WO 361 444 mentions my Great Uncle Private 5885340 George Edward Payne? He died in Burma on or after 25 May 1944 and has no known grave. I checked the National Archives Website and noticed 444 relates to crashed gliders - the oral family history passed down says that he died in a glider in Burma, I wondered if this document might expand on that.

    See my message above for a copy of his death certificate from May 1946.

    Regards

    Rich
     
  11. Hebridean Chindit

    Hebridean Chindit Lost in review...

    Hi Rich

    No mention in WO361-444, which is mostly related to three gliders at the start of the campaign...

    WO361-443 contains three mentions but two are just name/rank/serial etc.
    The third is in a listed section of hand-written names (some of which are damaged and names missing) and he is noted as "died wds" and dated 25-5-44

    That's it I'm afraid but...

    A column of numbers is headed with BM No - his being 147370 - anyone know what BM stands for...?
     
  12. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Hi Rich,

    I have looked through the MIA files and George is listed as Died of wounds, but does not feature in any of the fuller reports for men actually missing. I think that he died from his wounds still in the company of his unit and so did not require a missing report.

    As part of either Column 81 or 82 of 77th Indian Infantry Brigade he would almost certainly have flown in to a place nicknamed 'Broadway' in early March 1944. Flown in by glider! Most of the Kings Regiment soldiers went in to Burma in the first wave of troops, landing to secure the area and assist in making it a viable airstrip for future landings.

    His date of death suggests to me that he was caught up in the action when the two Kings columns (81/82) were leaving Broadway for another Chindit stronghold named 'Blackpool'.

    The Kings were ambushed on the march to Blackpool and the columns became split, many men were wounded or killed, with 100 or so leaving the march and heading away to the east towards Mogaung. This is a strong possibility for what might have caused George to be wounded, but it is still a guess.

    Attached is George's inscription on the Rangoon Memorial at Taukkyan War Cemetery. I will reply to your pm so that I can send you the papers that at least refer to him from the WO361/443 file.

    Sorry there was not more conclusive evidence for his wounds in these papers.

    Steve
     

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  13. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Hi Rich

    No mention in WO361-444, which is mostly related to three gliders at the start of the campaign...

    WO361-443 contains three mentions but two are just name/rank/serial etc.
    The third is in a listed section of hand-written names (some of which are damaged and names missing) and he is noted as "died wds" and dated 25-5-44

    That's it I'm afraid but...

    A column of numbers is headed with BM No - his being 147370 - anyone know what BM stands for...?

    Hi Ken,

    I have often thought about that and can only come up with 'Believed missing' or 'Burma missing'.
     
  14. impala_ood

    impala_ood Junior Member

    Steve and Ken thank you both for your replies, I have pm'd you both as well.

    I'm reading lots and trying to find out all I can about those times/places/operations but I'm definitely at the beginning of quite a steep learning curve and your replies have been a great help and setting me off in the right direction.

    Just one question, if George did die of his wounds whilst still with his company, would it seem usual that his death certificate was only issued 2 years later in 1946? That might be the normal course of events, I have no prior knowledge or experience to fall back on, but it seems an awfully long time for the poor family to wait for that final confirmation.

    Even after all these years I find it sad to think he is out there somewhere so far from home. I know my Nan, his sister, and his other siblings and his Mum often thought about him.

    Sad times, brave men. Thank you for helping keep their memory alive.

    Rich
     
  15. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Steve and Ken thank you both for your replies, I have pm'd you both as well.

    I'm reading lots and trying to find out all I can about those times/places/operations but I'm definitely at the beginning of quite a steep learning curve and your replies have been a great help and setting me off in the right direction.

    Just one question, if George did die of his wounds whilst still with his company, would it seem usual that his death certificate was only issued 2 years later in 1946? That might be the normal course of events, I have no prior knowledge or experience to fall back on, but it seems an awfully long time for the poor family to wait for that final confirmation.

    Even after all these years I find it sad to think he is out there somewhere so far from home. I know my Nan, his sister, and his other siblings and his Mum often thought about him.

    Sad times, brave men. Thank you for helping keep their memory alive.

    Rich

    No problem Rich,

    Let us know if new information comes to light. Brave men indeed.:poppy:
     
  16. Hebridean Chindit

    Hebridean Chindit Lost in review...

    ... I will reply to your pm so that I can send you the papers that at least refer to him from the WO361/443 file.


    Steve, I sent him the three I've found from those files... I also noted in the PM that it might have been a "chosen" date and that was the 25th May - "Blackpool's" fall...?
     
  17. impala_ood

    impala_ood Junior Member

    Copied here for the benefit of all is an email I just sent to Bamboo43 (Steve).

    Thank you Steve. I think you hit the nail on the head with the Northamptonshire Regiment. I just checked George's entry on the UK Army Roll of Honour 1939-1945 on ancestry.co.uk again and it does confirm his regiment on enlistment was the Northants, and his regiment at time of death was Kings (Liverpool). I've looked at the original of the group photo with a magnifying glass, and whilst it is not a lot clearer than the scanned copy (the original photo is surprisingly small) I feel 99% certain than the cap badge is indeed a Northamptonshire cap badge, now that you have shown me what the original looks like. So we have made some real progress! And I think we can say with confidence that George is one of those men. Mum and I both think middle row third from left bears the strongest family resemblance.

    I've gone through the old photos again and found this one. It's clearly WW2 era. It's not George's elder brother Billy. Could the cap badge be that of the Kings regiment which I understand is a horse above a scroll? It's not very clear, but I think it could be. What do you think? You might recognise the Kings uniform or badge better than me. If so, then this is very likely George.

    The pages you and Ken emailed me from the NA archives are interesting. On the one hand you have 25/5/44 against George's name in a column marked missing date and what seems to be a request that the Officer Commanding 1st Kings get statements as to the circumstance surrounding where each man was last seen. Another page suggests a statement was provided in respect of George, and forwarded on microfiche. Yet another entry confidently says 'died of wounds' where as other names listed nearby say "presumed died of wounds" or "presumed killed in action". So it does seem they were saying with certainty that he had died. I wonder what statement was submitted in respect of George, and whether that still exists somewhere.

    Ken noted the column marked BM or BH number - in Georges case 147370. Like Ken I wonder what this abbreviation and number mean? On another of the scanned images beneath the main printed text a pencil entry or comment seems to have been added saying "Action min in relevant B.M's".

    Any ideas?

    Thanks again for taking the time to put those images together, including his name on the memorial on Rangoon, it means a lot.

    I've added this reply to the original post/thread, incase it's of interest or help to anyone else. Feel free to reply by email or via the original thread.

    Regards

    Rich


    For the benefit of all, attached are two photos which belonged to George's mother and have been passed down through the family and which I'm now thinking could be George. The first is a group photo, cap badge looks likely to be Northamptonshire regiment which was George's regiment on enlistment. The second - could that be a Kings (Liverpool) cap badge?

    PS - update. We've found an individual photo of George in his civilian clothes and comparing the two can confirm that in this group photo George is back row 4th from left
     

    Attached Files:

  18. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Steve, I sent him the three I've found from those files... I also noted in the PM that it might have been a "chosen" date and that was the 25th May - "Blackpool's" fall...?

    That is a very good call Ken.
     
  19. impala_ood

    impala_ood Junior Member

    Guys are there any maps available showing where these camps and battles took place? Perhaps on line? Or can you recommend any good books? I don't mean to sound lazy and will continue having a look round myself, but wondered if you can recommend any. My geography is usually pretty good but I have to say I know nothing at all about Burma and I'd like to improve my understanding of where these things happened.

    Do people ever visit the sites you mention, Blackpool etc and the other defensive points and landing zones that you mention or are they forever lost in inaccessible jungle miles from road or civilisation?

    Rich
     
  20. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Hi Rich,

    Ken is your man for maps and books there can be no doubt!:D

    There have been two (I think) Royal British Legion pilgrimages to the sites of Chindit importance over the last decade or so. Remarkably places like Broadway, Blackpool and White City although showing no hint outwardly of battles past, do geographically still look similar.
     

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