Red Arrow Crash

Discussion in 'WW2 Museums. Events, & places to see.' started by von Poop, Aug 20, 2011.

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  1. Roxy

    Roxy Senior Member

    Harry,

    The replacement for the Hawk T1/T1A is the Hawk T2, built by BAES at Brough. It was, I believe, supposed to start training pilots this month; however, the effective closure of the flying training pipeline may have caused a delay.

    RAF Valley - Hawk T2

    Roxy
     
  2. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Roxy,

    As I was saying,from what the MOD has released to the BBC regional news, the Hawks are destined to last until 2018.

    The Jane's pundit indicated that Hawks should be changed in the short term,quoting 18 months to 2 years time based on a service hours reference at a cost of £350-£400 million. Airframe stress aggregate not referenced.
     
  3. bern

    bern Senior Member

  4. Roxy

    Roxy Senior Member

    Harry,

    2018/2020 are the dates when the Hawk T1's service will end for the Reds/RAF. The Hawk T2 is already here. No doubt the ac for the Reds will be properly reviewed; however, they have flown in the RAF's Fast Jet training aircraft since their first season - 1965 in the Gnat.

    Roxy

    Roxy
     
  5. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Roxy

    It must the the BBC local newsroom how they handled the incoming news items but this must have been from a MOD press officer screened item.The same item was repeated on the late night news.

    Memories of the Folland Gnat,designed as a fighter,a private venture which was not entirely successful as far as the RAF were concerned and it ordered a little over 100 aircraft as trainers and as you say, it was eventally overrun by the introduction of the Hawk.

    If I remember correctly the Gnat had more success in service with the Indian A.F with the fighter version,its only export order.

    Regarding the wear and tear on the Hawk 1,does the RAF incorporate condition monitoring on their jet engines or are engine changes driven by service hours?
     
  6. Roxy

    Roxy Senior Member

    Harry,

    I concur with your thoughts on the Gnat. It was always going to be a bit small as a fighter.

    I'm not totally sure about the engine wear and tear - I suspect that there will be a bit of both; items will be monitored for condition but, regardless, will be changed after a number of flying/operating hours.

    The 'official' line regarding the Reds and the Hawk is:

    There are no plans to disband the Red Arrows at this time. Additionally, it should be noted that under current plans, the Red Arrows will continue to operate their current aircraft (Hawk) until 2018. With respect to possible replacement capabilities, it would not be appropriate for the MOD to comment on the potential cost ahead of any contract being signed, as to do so might compromise the Department's commercial position.

    Roxy
     
  7. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    A Red Arrows pilot died from multiple injuries after being ejected from an aircraft, an inquest has heard.
    Flt Lt Sean James Cunningham, 35, was killed when he was ejected from his Hawk T1 while on the ground at the Red Arrows base at RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire on 8 November.


    BBC News - Inquest hears Red Arrows pilot died from fall injuries
     
  8. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    I concur with your thoughts on the Gnat. It was always going to be a bit small as a fighter


    Teddy Petter's prototype Midge, the immediate predecessor to the Gnat, was even smaller! He specifically considered that the then-current progression to ever bigger, heavier fighters was a mistake - in his opinion it was taking ever more of the flying ability/performance of these to just keep themselves in the air! - and he also viewed a small, simple fighter as a potential sales success for developing countries...although Finland bought a dozen as well!

    Petter's PREVIOUS design job was, of course....the English Electric Lightning!
     
  9. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Harry,

    I concur with your thoughts on the Gnat. It was always going to be a bit small as a fighter.

    I'm not totally sure about the engine wear and tear - I suspect that there will be a bit of both; items will be monitored for condition but, regardless, will be changed after a number of flying/operating hours.

    The 'official' line regarding the Reds and the Hawk is:

    There are no plans to disband the Red Arrows at this time. Additionally, it should be noted that under current plans, the Red Arrows will continue to operate their current aircraft (Hawk) until 2018. With respect to possible replacement capabilities, it would not be appropriate for the MOD to comment on the potential cost ahead of any contract being signed, as to do so might compromise the Department's commercial position.

    Roxy

    Therefore,if the MOD maintain the declared policy and withdraw the Hawk from the training role in 2018,it looks as if there will be short lifed Hawks becoming redundant after about 6 years service...maybe another sale of assets in the future. However if the RAF are to still be involved in a manned aircraft defence role,there will still be a need for fast jet trainers.

    Condition monitoring has made tremendous strides as an aid to those responsible for the operation and maintenance of rotating plant.It supplies a finger print of how the plant has been operated,hopefully within its operating envelope.Maintenance regimes,in addition to the manufacturerer's recommendations are usually determined from this information.No doubt engine manufacturers have schemes whereby this information can be downloaded to the centre for plant history and maintenance schedules.

    Contrast that with the Avon industrial land version on which engines changes were determined after 2000 operating hours or 1200 starts whichever was reached first.
     
  10. Stormbird

    Stormbird Restless

    Gentlemen, ladies,

    While sharing your concern for the Hawk T1 service life and the future of the RAF display team, the really interesting question remains:

    Was there a malfunction in the escape system ?
    If so, has it been identified and addressed ?

    Every ejection seat rider world-wide will stay uneasy until this has been satisfied.
     
  11. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    A decision is expected soon on when the Red Arrows can resume flying after some Hawk jets and all Tucano aircraft were cleared for flying by the RAF.
    The Tucano and Hawk T Mk2 have been cleared following safety checks to their ejector seat systems.


    BBC News - RAF lifts Hawk T2 and Tucano flights suspension
     
    Stormbird likes this.
  12. Stormbird

    Stormbird Restless

    Thank you. Reassuring news.
     
  13. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    Hundreds of people turned out for the funeral of Red Arrows pilot Flt Lt Sean Cunningham at Coventry Cathedral.
    Flt Lt Cunningham, 35, was killed when he was ejected from his Hawk T1 aircraft while on the runway at RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire on 8 November.


    BBC News - Funeral for RAF Red Arrows pilot Flt Lt Sean Cunningham
     
  14. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    The Red Arrows have been cleared to fly again after a safety review prompted by a pilot's ejector seat death.
    Flt Lt Sean Cunningham, 35, was killed after being ejected from his plane while it on the ground at RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire, on 8 November.
    All the RAF's Hawk T1 aircraft were grounded after the accident.
    The Ministry of Defence said it has no remaining concerns following the review of the ejection seat system on the Hawk T1 aircraft.


    BBC News - Red Arrows flights suspension lifted after ejector seat death
     
  15. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    A former Red Arrows pilot is rejoining the display team following the death of Flt Lt Sean Cunningham.
    The 35-year-old pilot was killed after being ejected from his Hawk T1 aircraft while it was on the ground at RAF Scampton on 8 November.
    Squadron Leader Martin Higgins will take his place for the 2012 display season.
    Sqn Ldr Higgins' position will be taken up by Squadron Leader Mike Ling who was injured and left the team last year.


    BBC News - Former Red Arrow rejoins following pilot's death
     
  16. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    Plans to scale down operations at the Lincolnshire RAF base which is the home of Red Arrows are to be reviewed.
    In 2008 the Labour government said RAF Scampton would be downsized and the Red Arrows moved to RAF Waddington.
    This was put on hold last year and now a statement from Defence Secretary Phillip Hammond has confirmed the decision will be reconsidered.
    A final decision is due in 2012 but he added that the original plan to move the Red Arrows was still an option.






    BBC News - Red Arrows RAF Scampton move plan to be reviewed
     
  17. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

  18. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    A Ministry of Defence spokesman said: "The Red Arrows will conduct aerobatic displays with seven aircraft rather than the usual nine in 2012 due to the unavoidable posting of one of their pilots.
    "With safety paramount, but the quality of the displays vitally important, it has been decided that seven aircraft presents the most visually balanced and dynamic formation.


    BBC News - Red Arrows' first female pilot takes ground role
     
  19. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Britain's first female Red Arrows pilot is to move to a ground role after two of her flying colleagues were killed in separate tragedies.
    Flight Lieutenant Kirsty Stewart, 33, is to be reassigned after the 'tragic events' of 2011 had an 'adverse effect' on her, a defence source said.

    Not sure how much truth there is for the reasons in this story.


    Do you have any thoughts on what is the 'truth'?

    Regardless, it looks like Flight Lieutenant Kirsty Stewart will only be flying a desk henceforth!

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  20. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

    Don't you only get to fly with the Red Arrows for two years any way??? 2010 2011 = 2years Tour of duty over!

    Well that what I was told by the then Leader. If this is true and i am not saying it is gospel all I can say is bad reporting is bad reporting nice one BBC.
     

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