What is it about Arnhem etc.?

Discussion in 'Historiography' started by von Poop, Aug 26, 2014.

  1. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

    Is it correct that the book thread has been deleted?
  2. Tom Wallace

    Tom Wallace Junior Member

    That didn't answer VP's question though did it?
  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Loving the assumptions.
    I started this thread before the books one was pulled.
    I didn't pull it.
    It isn't deleted.
    I don't doubt it'll be back - you all know we don't like pulling threads, to the extent I can't remember when I last did so.

    Yes, I'm interested in why the stroppiness is so easily found in Arnhem discussions - which is why I put this in 'Historiography'.

    Can't accept that it's down to any real operational reasons that 'Arnhem' is a viper's nest of handbags and accusation though.
    There're many contentious operations of the war, many personalities that divide, but not many that so often drip with venom - it's something cultural as far as I can see.
    I can only really see the operational outcomes maybe triggering that during original disagreements, but that still doesn't explain the factionalism & territorial strangeness.

    Is it about 'Ownership'?
    British Para types, ex & affiliated, objecting to Dutch chaps' interest?
    I sometimes get that feeling.
    Rich Payne likes this.
  4. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Just my thoughts on how to behave on all threads including Arnhem
  5. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

    Well if it's not deleted couldn't it just be locked for a bit? Personally, I've found it to be a bloody good resource in the last few weeks.
  6. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    You are probably fairly close.
  7. Tom Wallace

    Tom Wallace Junior Member

    It's possible, but don't worry as it seems this one has replaced it for now. :D

    Thanks for that, son.
  8. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    I've tended to ignore it as there isn't enough by way of reviews for me but then, the recent spate of childishness has caught my attention.

    There do seem to be individuals who can't see how they could possibly have contributed to the very result about which they complain.

    Demands for 'things to be done' did indeed result in 'things being done'.
    Grabs the attention, doesn't it. :D
    Lofty1 likes this.
  9. Lofty1

    Lofty1 Senior Member

    Mr Wallace Sir, or can I call you son, I find your comments regarding seemingly all students of Arnhem, book collectors, reenactors, and the like extremely uncharitable, misguided, and both rude and wrong, you are quite entitled to your opinion son, but perhaps a little more unbiased research into what some of these people do, should (but probably wouldn't) sway your opinion,
    So there you go son---least said soonest mended, OH and Arnhem students don't drink Babycham

    Thanks for your input son

  10. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

  11. smdarby

    smdarby Well-Known Member

    Personally, I thought he was spot on with reenactors. Very strange bunch.
  12. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I think that you're right there, Adam. The argument is populated by British who feel that their armed forces can't do any wrong (particularly if those forces are of the poorly equipped infantry who jump out of aeroplanes type), the substantial British minority who like to knock anything that is popular (I probably count myself there...), the Dutch who feel that they should be the accepted experts as they know the ground (and can pronounce the place names) and of course Americans who just love Market-Garden as it takes some of the attention away from their getting caught out so badly in the Ardennes Salient shortly afterwards.

    This is then compounded by the fact that many Americans don't realise when they're the victim of a wind-up and that the Dutch pride themselves on their plain-speaking which most of their neighbours regard as downright rudeness. I have some very good Dutch friends but they tend to be of the quieter variety...

    But when it comes down to it, we do all understand that it was the dodgy Austin engines which caused the failure of Market - Garden, don't we ?
    ClankyPencil likes this.
  13. wtid45

    wtid45 Very Senior Member

    Its about those who want to learn more about the battle, those who know a little, those who know a lot, and those who don't want to tell anybody else anything! for me who has ww2 interests outside of the Arnhem sphere of interest I can sit outside the bubble, that's not to say that when a new book comes out I don't want it of course I do.... if it adds to my learning and wider knowledge of the battle but its not that simple...... a lot of Arnhem related books are not readily available to simple folk like me :( and I dare say im not alone in this, between those that are privately published or only accessible through visits to Holland (cant afford that sorry two young Daughters and an ill Wife to care for) on the flip side I have made friends....yes we can be friends ;) and there IS a vast sharing of knowledge amongst the Arnhem brethren. We don't all think that the mere mention of the words Airborne or Para MAKES US SPECIAL, I appreciate planes and tanks too :biggrin: and when was the last time those of us in my other guise of the forgotten 14th and the Burma related threads had a good row....oh god he's on about the poor forgotten army again....see what I did there :rolleyes:.Here is a radical idea lets all get on and share....I will start who wants my last Rolo?
    Lofty1 and CL1 like this.
  14. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    Interesting topic.

    Doug, don't get me started on Austin engines...did I tell you I went to look at Chester Wilmot's notes at King's College to see whether he had any other source than the 21st Army Group Admin History. Answer is no, and there lies one answer to the whole Arnhem tale - it has been so written about that people are struggling to cope with the weight of the "perceived wisdom", and any attempt at a balanced view gets blown away by the ingrained opinions driven by years of continual reinforcement.

    For example, any attempt to suggest that 1 British Airborne Division was anything other than an "elite" unit (whatever that means) is met with howls of protest, when there is much evidence of a collapse of command and control during the battle. Indeed, much of the historiography is written from a perspective as deeply entrenched and difficult to shift as a British infantry unit once dug in (whether airborne or not).

    The post-war battle of the memoirs certainly hasn't helped - nor our problems with accepting the much reduced British influence in the world. In fact, Al Murray made some good points about the film and the battle on the telly the other night.


    dbf and Rich Payne like this.
  15. Tom Wallace

    Tom Wallace Junior Member

    Lofty, my experience of most of the people I descibed is not misguided and stems from decades of being in and out of their company. As for rude, I could tell you some stories about some of them that were beyond rude aimed at me and their obsession to own things. Not sure whom 'these' people you refer to are, but if they're the ones that post on here, then I've a good idea what many do as I've been reading the posts on this site for years and I could see the book thread fall out coming a mile away. So no...my opinion won't be swayed.

    And there's me thinking it was the inability of the seaborne party to link up with John Frost and reunite him with his much loved morale inducing trews.

    Good luck with that!
  16. idler

    idler GeneralList

    How much of the problem is the marketability of MARKET? Continued interest in the battle, the volume and depth of available literature etc. must look like a path to riches for budding authors. Does information - history - become 'owned', 'hoarded', 'poached' and 'stolen' because it is perceived to have a value?

    I'm not knocking this mindset as I'm probably guilty of it myself to a degree (though in less fashionable areas). Perhaps the OMG crowd has achieved some sort of critical mass simply because of the huge number of interested parties, where everybody needs somebody else's pieces to complete their jigsaw?
    dbf and Lofty1 like this.
  17. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    No , although that was the threat I gave if the hassle about it continued , which it did.
    Hidden from view for just short of 24 but now it's back.

    Admin was blamed for it's deleteion , which is wrong.
    I'm not admin, I'm a lowly Moderator, thread wasn't deleted just hidden.
    It's all still there.
  18. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    I've seen photos. You're not all that low.
  19. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    This makes further sense to me.
    Lofty1 likes this.
  20. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    ref.jpg In this case, an impartial observer!

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