What is it about Arnhem etc.?

Discussion in 'Historiography' started by von Poop, Aug 26, 2014.

  1. arnhem44

    arnhem44 Member

    ...uh hey? I read this :
    "Failure at Arnhem also gave the Nazis a much-needed extra four months, to 1st May, 1945, in which to transport everything and everyone of value out of Germany, to hiding places in Switzerland and far-flung corners of the world such as Argentina and Indonesia."

    Indonesia ? Anyone having some more info/rumour about that ?

    (ps..I don't think Prince Bernhard was still a nazi(advocate) after 1935.or betrayed plans (that was -supposedly- but still never proven; the King Kong double agent) ..but he is sure thick into scratching back/washing hands with fellow elitist german aristocrats who were in Wehrmacht or still NSDAP members up till 1945...)

    (PPS: RT is Putin Russian propagandist media..I know..)
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Being more specific.
    Market Garden study is a viper's pit.
    Not necessarily about the actual history itself, more about some sort of long running territorial dispute.

    I've had more 'I'm outraged' correspondence, riddled with personal accusations and outlines of drawn out vendettas in this area than any other.
    Riddled with handbags, and it puzzles me somewhat.
    There's many sound people in the field too, some of the most interesting and pleasant chaps on here have an Arnhem interest, but they suffer alongside a fair chunk of shouty, petulant, accusational nonsense.

    I know I am not the only one to perceive something odd about the field, nor do I expect or propose a solution. I'm just sort of fascinated by such things.

    (And while I agree with much of what you say about the Prince, mate, please don't add to the Bilderburg stuff here - it's tiresome conspiracy strangeness, for which I believe there is a thread already... If the lizards haven't taken it away.)
     
  3. DPas

    DPas Member

    I disagree with Wowtank's theory that it has dropped down from unit rivalry. I just do not see it. The veterans are not the problem.

    One possible source is simply a clash of cultures. I think proportionately there is a more even split between British, Dutch, US, etc than many other areas. But I know many British who like to throw handbags with other groups of British and similar between Dutch and Dutch, etc so it does not account for that.

    I would say that the views of you "outsiders" is marred by a few loud voices. I am sure if you made a list of those "shouty, petulant" people Adam, and I did the same our lists would have about a dozen people and look remarkably similar. There is a lot of truth in the adage that empty vessels make the most noise.

    As I say though, this sort of behaviour is just silly. It ridicules the area and is highly disrespectful.

    One last point. These people that like the "throw the handbags" and spend half of their time whinging, many had some sort of credibility at the beginning. As new people enter this area of research, the new people start asking "what is this guy's problem". These shouty people that had credibility start to lose it no matter what book or booklet they published or what set of records they have or what group they are associated with. And they become a laughing stock. The whingey e-mails I get these days are often outweighed by the e-mails and messages that I get which take the absolute piss out of the "shouty, petulant" people. They are actually quite funny. And the shouty, petulant people do not even realise this is happening and think they are still respected. Some of these twits may even read what I have just written and say "ha, at least that is not me."

    As I say, it would be funny only for the fact that it blackens the name of market garden and disrespects those who were actually there.

    Anyway, for my part, I am going to keep the head down and get on with it. Since joining this forum and other groups I have learned a lot and used that as best as I can to help rather a lot of other families find out about "what Dad did and what Grandad did". That is what it is all about I think - telling the story and preserving the memory. At least I hope it is or I have just wasted a lot of time!!!
     
    Drew5233, Owen, 4jonboy and 3 others like this.
  4. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    All the posts and we still have numerous reasons why it goes wrong with the relevant individuals.

    All I know whilst we like a good debate here when it gets personal on the internet it usually goes down the pan.

    Why is it a closed shop
    Why are there outsiders
    It was a battle in a war which is very well documented and many people suffered.
    What drives these individuals to hold the high ground of knowledge and correctness.

    No answers required
    Just build a bridge and get over it,share you knowledge and learn from others .

    DPas no you haven't wasted your time.
     
    Lofty1 and DPas like this.
  5. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    :D
    DPas
    Much of what you said rings a bell. I was an OMG/GAD enthusiast at the beginning of my membership here and I can say I was well and truly put off after just one thread, in which I was trying to participate, went sour.

    Wasted time? Your write-up on another thread (and the response from the forum) says otherwise.

    I couldn't agree more, and the viper's pit is the reason why at an early stage I promised myself I'd not post on OMG threads ... oops.

    Reflecting also on earlier comments by a previous poster over trying to stay neutral but being perceived as having taken sides: in the past I have also experienced attempts to enforce allegiances, this despite my waning interest.

    There are indeed: but of those who I’ve had dealings, it’s obvious their outlook isn't as narrow.


    While I agree that 'ownership' and 'overcrowding' most certainly have a major part to play in it, I think there is still more going on. Perhaps it’s a combo of both those aspects along with the opportunity, presented by the sheer volume of associated information, to try and trump a long-standing ‘opponent’.
     
    Lofty1, CL1 and DPas like this.
  6. TriciaF

    TriciaF Junior Member

    Well I had obviously completely missed the point in my early post , never having read the previous arguments on other threads.
    Interesting though, no wonder there are wars.
     
  7. Tom OBrien

    Tom OBrien Senior Member

    "...Market Garden is the most pivotal clash in WW2 with the highest "what if.." value."

    I don't get this at all though. "Market Garden" was none of these things - it has been blown out of all proportion - perhaps Wilmot was to blame for starting this or perhaps it was just a Montgomery v SHAEF thing. Now it seems to be a publishing thing; lots of books repeating the same old stuff, without much new thought being put in.

    There seems two levels of argument - those at the strategic level (i.e was MG a "fiasco", how could Monty have been so "incompetent", if only Ike had concentrated on one objective, etc, etc?) and those at the tactical (that document or photo or interview belongs to me!). Like much of the discussion, many seem not able to see the wood for the trees.

    If you think that MG starts arguments, you have obviously never wondered who started the First World War. :biggrin: I like Margeret MacMillan's recent statement that if anyone else asked her about the origins of WW1 she would burst into tears. Sometimes, I get that feeling when I look at "Arnhem" books :indexCAXI2NHN:

    Cheers

    Tom
     
    dbf likes this.
  8. JohnS

    JohnS Senior Member

    Boy, I step away from this topic for a bit and...
    Anyhow, as I just finished a non-Arnhem book (called River Assault: Operation Duck: The 3rd Canadian Infantry Division at Leer 28th April 1945) a thought occurred to me. I can't think of any battle in history that has been studied so much as the British at Arnhem. Every little detail has been explored and written about. And I do mean every little detail. I once saw a discussion about the socks they wore. If I went to the same detail for River Assault then the book would be over a 2000 pages!
    I don't know why people are transfixed about knowing every little detail, but there is something about it. I have to confuse that the battle has some kind of power over me too. Fortunately, I am able to step away for periods of time to do other things, and to see that there is more to life than Arnhem. Some people can't. Dear god, there should be some kind of help group for them. For us I mean, as I have to include myself in the Arnhem disease too.
    What shall we call this group? AA? Arnhem Addicts?
     
  9. Tom Wallace

    Tom Wallace Junior Member

    I went to an organised OMG talk recently. I've never been to a talk on the subject before so was quite excited to learn some new aspects, especially as I've been more interested in the British and Polish airborne side of things. I brought several things with me to pass around and display as I thought people would appreciate it. Anyway, I was expecting to hear a talk about OMG but instead it was a slide show of a road trip that the speaker had taken nine years ago. The photos he displayed were mainly of museums, cemetries and monuments in Holland, not all of which were dedicated to OMG or even related. He talked through them as he went with the aid of a laser pointer and it was clear his knowledge was an overview of OMG rather than it being his thing. He admited that tanks weren't his interest either and asked the audience to 'name the tank' as they appeared on screen. There were some before and after photos and sadly he'd placed a wartime photo of Nijmegen bridge alongside the photo he took of Arnhem bridge. We all had a giggle about it and there was a bit of banter back and forth, but I had to curb my enthusiasm when talking about Arnhem as the talk was about OMG and the speaker didn't really know much about any of it to be fair.

    It was a new experience for me, and I've mentioned it before that a U.K. based seminar would be a very positive thing.

    Tom
     
  10. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

  11. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

  12. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    Thanks Cee.

    I must say it doesn't seem like he tried hard to blend in. :)

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  13. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

  14. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    Has anyone taken photos of the 2014 Arnhem commemorations or attended them, by any chance? I saw a little on the TV news broadcasts but it was relatively scant.
     
  15. AndyBaldEagle

    AndyBaldEagle Very Senior Member

    There is an OMG page on Facebook run by an acquaintance of mine, it is a closed group and you have to apply to join, for good reason. Many of the members of this group have posted many many pics,

    Regards
    Andy
     
  16. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Paul Reed likes this.
  17. arnhem44

    arnhem44 Member

    Dutch TV docu and commemoration show on saturday 20 sept in Driel and some images on Ginkel Heath service (note a fog delayed the intended para-droppings to later in the afternoon).
    http://www.npo.nl/nos-market-garden/20-09-2014/14act0920MarketG


    Dutch TV docu and commemoration show on sunday 21 sept in Nijmegen point of crossing the Waal (and also film shots of the service at Oosterbeek cemetary)
    http://www.npo.nl/nos-herdenking-market-garden/21-09-2014/14act0921MarketG


    (by the way, when and why did the americans decided to change their paratroopers maroon cap into this , in my taste, silly looking ear-flap, or Tin-Tin hat ?... is it one of those examples of americans attitude "we are different, and so we most show all we are different" ?).
     
    stolpi likes this.
  18. arnhem44

    arnhem44 Member

  19. JohnS

    JohnS Senior Member

  20. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    von Poop likes this.

Share This Page