Tiger Tiger...?

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by von Poop, Dec 20, 2019.

  1. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Both cats were designed for the open expanses of the Eastern Front: The idea was to open fire at long range (up to a maximum of 3000m with combined company fire, up to 900m with individual fire) to compensate for quantitative inferiority.
    The low turret traverse speed was tolerated in order to ensure the necessary precision in target acquisition at such distances.
    Close combat in heavily intersected or built-up terrain was intended to be the domain of StuG, Mk IV and Mk III N
    In reality, however, Panthers and Tigers were also forced to operate in such areas where they could not exploit their range advantage,

    From today's perspective, the originally envisaged VK 30.01(D) project would probably have been more successful (And would also have been far more in line with the wishes of the Panzertruppe at the front.)
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    A tiny teacup storm of irritation over this elsewhere.

    Screenshot_20230125-163525.png

    I continue to find the fascination/fixation a little odd, but it definitely exists, so probably entirely sound marketing. Bov knows 131 is one of their biggest draws, and I imagine it'll sell out.
    Museums are expensive to run.

    My only real objection is I'm thoroughly tired of wanky special edition gin. :unsure:
     
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  3. riter

    riter Well-Known Member

    Intriguing. Should have been schnapps.
     
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  4. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    I will admit, I am one of the people who gripe about the amount of attention paid to German tanks (online and off).
     
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  5. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Jan 25, 2023
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  6. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

  7. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    The Tiger cult is a bit weird, but probably not that much weirder than Spitfire/Lancaster fetishism.

    There is an odd dual process going on nowadays where professional historians are debunking myths at the margins, while the mythologising of the Second World War in the popular consciousness is only accelerating. I think in the distant future WW2 will become like the Illiad or something, an almost wholly mythological story loosely based on real but distant events. The Hitlerrad or something.
     
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  8. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    An almost wholly mythological story loosely based on real but distant events... ;-)



    "That's our Hitler!"
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2023
  9. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    I am about to teach a class on the American Dust Bowl, the 1930s drought on the Great Plains. Something very much like what you describe is happening to that subject right now. Historians, scientists, and economists are finding new information and developing new and more complex interpretations while at the same time popular interest in the subject has created a tidal wave of graphic novels, musical albums, fiction for both kids and adults, and so on. There is even, God help us, a Dust Bowl Brewing Company.
     
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  10. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    My secret shame is that I'm utterly tired of Spitfires.
    Hadn't really associated it with the Tiger thing, but spot on, I reckon.

    Of course they're both interesting for assorted reasons, but so often to the exclusion of all else.
    I can possibly understand the Spitfire's deliberate promotion to national icon as it's such a convenient bit of easily accessible aesthetic (and aural) symbolism, but that doesn't stop me muttering 'Spitfire spitfire bloody spitfire' whenever they're the classic aircraft getting the most persistent (and even banal) coverage, whether in history world or wider media.
    Other interesting machines are available...

    Not sure Tigger ever broke through to that wider cultural thing, though.
    Nobody talks about the romance of tanks* alongside it as they do for spitfire and flight.

    Both remain complex machines for killing people.

    *Now pottering off to doubtless find some loonies getting romantic about tanks.
     
  11. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I recently saw this in the 16th February 1945 - "The War Illustrated"...

    20230131_113452.jpg

    The "Tiger" obsession surely fails - at all sorts of hurdles, I wonder if there were ever calls to name it, or one of it's ilk the "Hitler tank" ;-) mind you, Hitler...

    Cat Haters: Famous People in History Who Disliked Cats

    Why Are So Many Iconic Tanks Named After Cats?

    Given that... "The Nazi propaganda machine played a role in glorifying the Tiger and Panther. With instantly recognizable and easy-to-pronounce names, the German public had no trouble idolizing the two tanks alongside the decorated aces who commanded them."

    ...It's a pity people still fall for it.

    "Stop that Tank"

     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2023
  12. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Substitute Mosquito for Spitfire in that statement and it describes me. Great plane but give it a rest.

    I like all WWII planes but I'd rather see a Hurricane than a Spitfire and I'd rather see a P-40 than a P-51.
     
  13. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    This feels edifying though ;-)



    Whereas...



    ...shows plenty of things getting hammered by persons appearing to be far more parts of some people grinding machine, rather than "everyday people" assembling some giant "model" airplanes for a greater good...

    And, more specifically, Tigers...

     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2023
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  14. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Still not beating WW2 usage, at least in publications scanned by Google books.

    Screenshot_20230201-141306.png

    If nothing else, it indicates plenty of 40s mentions.
    Might have to check other vehicles. See if they get more or less.
     
  15. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    The absolute worst people in the world are the ones who talk about "Tiger" instead of "the Tiger", as though it was an actual person.

    But this is all synecdoche, isn't it? They are the parts that represent the whole for people with only a casual interest in WW2. Like the Tyrannosaurus Rex represents the category of "all predatory dinosaurs" and the Brontosaurus represents "all herbivorous dinosaurs". So the Spitfire is "all Allied fighters" or even "all Allied aircraft", and the Tiger is "all German tanks" or even "all tanks". Adolf Hitler is "all bad people" and Churchill is "all good people" (although of course there is a dedicated attempt going on to change the latter perception).
     
  16. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    Think that peak in the 2000's must be from "Fury".
     
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  17. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Not sure I use the definite article much when referring to tanks anyway. Dunno.
    Think I tend to say Crusader, Conqueror etc. without it, though that might be because I'm usually speaking with people that know what I'm referring to.
    Take the wider point about how it's sometimes used to imply the thing's speshul, though that might be more often expressed as 'TIGER!!!!!!!!' :rolleyes:

    The Ngrams have always fascinated me. Appreciate they're a bit of a toy and extrapolated solely from what Google's digitised, but if the copyright flurry a few years back about Google's digitisation stands, and it almost certainly does, then they've digitised every text that's not nailed down.
    Often interesting re. trends though. (And excellent for creating unified graphs of swearing over a century. :unsure: )
     
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  18. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Ha.
    Latest Commando comics (re)release...

    Screenshot_20230202-123722.png
     
  19. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re.

    Fascinating, some recent context...

    https://twitter.com/TankMuseum/status/1620847084306825223?t=C6wZARnEHRf9iLn6jcsHTQ&s=19

    Screenshot_20230202-124600_Twitter.jpg

    ... so this one, definitely not in the "correct" markings... ;-)

    Panther - The Tank Museum

    A bit like the post-war Volkswagen Beetle... perhaps a Panther "Herbie" can be hugged :)

    Herbie - Wikipedia
     
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  20. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Said small plate:
    IMG_20200816_123944456.jpg

    But...
    Panther hasn't ever quite acquired the mystique and fandom that surrounds Tigger.
    Certainly a lot of it, but not quite.
    Though some get as excited about a Mark III as they do about a Tiger, seemingly largely because they're WW2 German.

    I like Tigers, Panthers, Churchills, Mediums and Bob Semples, but I don't think I quite see any of them as definitive icons.
    Just was always a lot easier to obtain serious books on the German gear so the knowledge was bolstered by Jentz, Doyle, Spielberger etc.
    Probably our own fault for allowing that to happen.
    Balance redressing ongoing I think.
     
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