The White Rose & Internal Resistance to Hitler.

Discussion in 'The Third Reich' started by Gerard, Mar 9, 2005.

  1. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Here is a link to an extremely informative site regarding the opposition to Hitler and the Nazis. IMHO, it is well worth exploring and provides some fascinating insights as to who was involved, the roles they played and their fate.

    http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Center.htm
     
  2. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Come on! Pull the other! Resistance to Hitler? Joking? or is this another bit of "we were really good" not the nasty people that we are made out to be........
    Sapper
     
  3. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Originally posted by sapper@Mar 9 2005, 12:56 PM
    Come on! Pull the other! Resistance to Hitler? Joking? or is this another bit of "we were really good" not the nasty people that we are made out to be........
    Sapper
    [post=32028]Quoted post[/post]

    Eh I dont think you'll find that sort of theme running through the site and whether you agree or not the site still is a place of interest. The site is related to the events around 20th July or do you deny that actually happened??? No-one doubts that all aspects of the regime was evil but does that mean that we should not study it?

    I never got that feeling from the site that it was in any way revisionist in theme although I will stand corrected on this.

    so what do you call the 20th of July? A training exercise to see what would happen in the event of a coup? As far as I was aware a bomb was planted with the intent to kill Hitler. I'm not trying to justify anyones actions, just if you want information on the plot its a good place to go.

    If you want that attitude that you mentioned in your post, then I suggest you read most of the memoirs of the German High Command, especially Manstein's "Lost Victories" or Guderian's "Panzer Leader"

    Thanks for the encouraging feedback :)
     
  4. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Again. are you serious? From my recall, the German people turned out in their millions to greet their Hero (when he was winning)

    They screamed their adulation of their "leader" trouble is, I can remember what it was like. The bomb? Oh yes, no doubt that it was real. Certainly......but it was only when catastrophic defeat was staring them starkly in the face, and all hope of some miracle had passed, that the bomb plot arose...If there had been a real resistance to Hitler? then why not the bomb plot when he was at the height of his powers? It just does not hold water, it was desperate attempt to salvage something from the ruins of utter defeat....It would not have worked. The German crimes were far to extensive for that little scheme.
    Sapper
     
  5. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Originally posted by sapper@Mar 9 2005, 02:13 PM
    Again. are you serious? From my recall, the German people turned out in their millions to greet their Hero (when he was winning)

    They screamed their adulation of their "leader" trouble is, I can remember what it was like. The bomb? Oh yes, no doubt that it was real. Certainly......but it was only when catastrophic defeat was staring them starkly in the face, and all hope of some miracle had passed, that the bomb plot arose...If there had been a real resistance to Hitler? then why not the bomb plot when he was at the height of his powers? It just does not hold water, it was desperate attempt to salvage something from the ruins of utter defeat....It would not have worked. The German crimes were far to extensive for that little scheme.
    Sapper
    [post=32031]Quoted post[/post]
    Sapper

    I fear that you are taking me up wrong. If you read my first post you would see that I am not making a statement about the rights and wrongs or supporting this in any way. I am merely providing an information source for those who may find this an area of interest. I merely stated that I found the site informative. I dont defend these people

    That notwithstanding, I am also aware of Hitler's adoration and veneration by the German people and it wasnt just confined to the German People. TIME magazine voted him Man of the Year in 1936 and correct me if I'm wrong but he wasnt seen by everyone as an evil man in England, at least not until 1939 anyway.

    Here is a reference to the subject by the "Holocaust Encyclopedia" and how they approach the matter:

    The government of Adolf Hitler was popular with most Germans. Although the Gestapo (secret state police) and the Security Service (SD) suppressed open criticism of the regime, there was some German opposition to the Nazi state and the regimentation of society that took place through the process of "coordination" (Gleichschaltung)--the alignment of individuals and institutions with Nazi goals.

    Opposition ranged from non-compliance with Nazi regulations to attempts to assassinate Hitler. Among the earliest resistance to the regime was the political opposition organized by leftist parties such as the Social Democratic Party and the Communist Party of Germany. However leftist opposition within Germany proved ineffectual, as the Security Police (Sipo) crushed the leftist political organizations by force.


    Efforts to "coordinate" religious life also followed the Nazi rise to power. Although the Concordat between the Vatican and the Third Reich in July 1933 regulated relations between the Reich and the Catholic church, the Nazis went on to suppress Catholic groups and sought to defame the church through a series of show trials known as the priest trials. While officially silent about the persecution of Jews, the church played a role in the opposition to the killing of mentally or physically handicapped individuals ("euthanasia"). Moreover, individual clergymen sought to protect or help Jews.

    Opposition to the Nazi regime also arose among a very small number of German youth, some of whom resented mandatory membership in the Hitler Youth. In Munich in 1942, university students formed the White Rose resistance group. Its leaders, Hans Scholl, his sister Sophie Scholl, and professor Kurt Huber were arrested and executed in 1943 for the distribution of anti-Nazi leaflets. A group that included conservative military officers and diplomats believed that Hitler's violent death should signal a general anti-Nazi revolt. Military officers attempted to assassinate Hitler on July 20, 1944, in his East Prussian headquarters at Rastenburg. Colonel Claus Schenk von Stauffenberg left a bomb in a briefcase near Hitler during a military briefing about the eastern front. In this plot, Karl Goerdeler, a traditional right-wing conservative politician, was to replace Hitler as chancellor. The group even included on its fringes some disillusioned Nazis such as Berlin police president Wolf Heinrich Count von Helldorf and Criminal Police (Kripo) chief Arthur Nebe. Hitler survived the blast, the coup attempt failed, and Roland Freisler, chief justice of the People's Court in Berlin, presided over the trial of those implicated in the plot. Invariably, Freisler convicted the defendants. Most were executed at Berlin's Ploetzensee prison.

    This is not a revisionist nor an apologist site and they recognise that opposition did exist within the Third Reich so please, Sapper, I appreciate your opinion and your points are well made but this DID exist and whilst they were not "good" people they did oppose Hitler.

    You know of course that the 20th July was not the first attempt on his life? That the Generals were planning a coup as far back as 1938 and the Munich Crisis??? And this was a t a time when he could do no wrong. You may mock or be critical but dont deny that it never happened.
     
  6. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Sapper, there WAS a resistance to Hitler in Germany before and during the war. Unfortunately for you and the rest of humanity, it did not achieve in its objectives. Nor was it a large organization. But there were close to 40 attempts on Hitler's life. Every one of them failed, in some cases by hair's breaths. One attempt was a bomb that blew up on November 8, 1939, in the Burgerbraukeller in Munich, just before Hitler was to speak there. It blew up the beerhall, but Der Fuehrer was late. Another attempt in 1943 misfired when the bombs in the champagne bottles in Der Fuehrer's plane failed to go off while he was flying in it. Hitler had incredible protection levels -- even an armored hat -- and even more incredible luck. Many of Hitler's early opponents died early -- among the first hauled off to Buchenwald in 1933. Most of the later resistance members died unbelievably vile deaths by being strangled on piano wire, which was filmed for Hitler's pleasure. Accounts vary on whether he repeatedly watched it or his entourage did. However, most of Germany, as you say, believed in Hitler until they had shocking defeat and appalling crimes shoved in their faces. But that does not take away from the courage of those who tried, like Henning Von Tresckow. He called Hitler "The arch-enemy of the world," and said that "A man's moral value only begins when he is willing to give his life for his convictions." Having said that, with the Gestapo coming to arrest him, Von Tresckow walked out into artillery fire on the Russian Front, so that he would never reveal the names of his resistance colleagues, even under torture. I thought about that as a kid, when anti-draft activists in America, during the 1979-1980 hostage crisis, held up the slogan, "There is nothing worth dying for."
     
  7. laufer

    laufer Senior Member

    Another site dedicated to German resistance ( German Resistance Memorial Center)
    http://www.gdw-berlin.de/index-e.php


    In my opinion, map of the net of terror from Gotthard's site is full of white gaps.
    Personally, I have great respect for the kids from White Rose and people like Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Plots of the German officers is another story...
     
  8. clancelot

    clancelot Junior Member

    had hitler been shot at all during his rule over the germany
     
  9. Lt. Winters

    Lt. Winters Member

    I can understand Sappers view it reminds me abit when people are tag team wrestiling and one does all the fighting and the other one stays back and when he sees his opoent has been weakend he only then steps up.
    Jack
     
  10. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    (clancelot @ Nov 3 2005, 03:40 AM) [post=40998]had hitler been shot at all during his rule over the germany
    [/b]

    Yes. He shot himself. Wish I could have been there.
     
  11. jimmy_jack_james

    jimmy_jack_james Junior Member

    (spidge @ Jan 10 2006, 03:48 PM) [post=44258](clancelot @ Nov 3 2005, 03:40 AM) [post=40998]had hitler been shot at all during his rule over the germany
    [/b]

    Yes. He shot himself. Wish I could have been there.
    [/b]
    i wish i was there also. wasnt he shot in wwi? i think he was but not completely sure.
     
  12. Reverend Bob

    Reverend Bob Senior Member

    I Think he was gassed??


    Cheers
    Bob
     
  13. Simon Bull

    Simon Bull Junior Member

    (sapper @ Mar 9 2005, 08:13 AM) [post=32031]Again. are you serious? From my recall, the German people turned out in their millions to greet their Hero (when he was winning)

    They screamed their adulation of their "leader" trouble is, I can remember what it was like. The bomb? Oh yes, no doubt that it was real. Certainly......but it was only when catastrophic defeat was staring them starkly in the face, and all hope of some miracle had passed, that the bomb plot arose...If there had been a real resistance to Hitler? then why not the bomb plot when he was at the height of his powers? It just does not hold water, it was desperate attempt to salvage something from the ruins of utter defeat....It would not have worked. The German crimes were far to extensive for that little scheme.
    Sapper
    [/b]

    Sapper - are you serious - what about (eg) the socialists and others who opposed Hitler and ended up in the early concentration camps? The people who hid Jews at conisderable risk to themselves etc.

    Just because the majority of Germans supported Hitler does not mean that no-one opposed him.
     
  14. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    (clancelot @ Nov 2 2005, 11:40 AM) [post=40998]had hitler been shot at all during his rule over the germany
    [/b]

    There were more than 20 separate attempts on Hitler's life while he was Fuhrer, including the well-known Attentat of July 20, 1944. Another attempt placed a bomb in the podium of the Burgerbraukeller in Munich in 1939, when Hitler went there for the annual rally. It missed blasting him by 30 minutes.
     
  15. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    He was stationed near Bapaume,when got a severe leg wound from a shell blast. 7th of October 1916. He got some fragment embedded in his leg from the blast of a attempted assassination in 44. The big bullet wound that would have changed things was when he was in the sights of a Private Henry Tandey - I am not sure if he was in the Staffs or Duke of Wellington's. Hitler saw that he was in his sights and took it as a sign of destiny that he was meant for greater things. He even had a painting of it hanging in Berchtesgarden.
     
  16. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    There was opposition from the Communists and socialists and obviously the Jews, but as has been mentioned once the concentration camps were up and running from about 1933, these would have been driven underground. Such was the case that family member were informing on their own family members and relations. You also have a country fighting to get it's self respect from defeat in the war and rampant inflation, they probably looking on this creature as a messiah to lead them back to greatness. Of the assassination attempt in 44 - would the conspirators have been conspirators if the Germans had been winning the war?

    In an environment where you couldn't even trust your family or neighbours, those that stood up to resist have got to have one's respect. Self preservation would fly in the face of thoughts of creating a resistance movement. Where would they get their arms. They would have been shot out of site. If it wasn't a sizeable tangible movement, it must have been in a lot of Germans minds, especially after the likes of Stalingrad. The potential resistance movement would have been mowed down. How would they have funded themselves or got weapons in effect sustained themselves. The brother and sister who didn't take up arms but were beheaded for speaking out. Bonhoffer a priest a cheese wire, Canaris tortured, his teeth smashed and left to a slow death by hanging.
     
  17. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    (lancesergeant @ Feb 9 2006, 11:47 AM) [post=45442]There was opposition from the Communists and socialists and obviously the Jews, but as has been mentioned once the concentration camps were up and running from about 1933, these would have been driven underground. Such was the case that family member were informing on their own family members and relations. You also have a country fighting to get it's self respect from defeat in the war and rampant inflation, they probably looking on this creature as a messiah to lead them back to greatness. Of the assassination attempt in 44 - would the conspirators have been conspirators if the Germans had been winning the war?[/b]

    Nazi Germany was running hot however when the worm turned it WAS too late. There were many people and organisations against the Nazi's rising to power however the majority were mesmerised with the promise of a 1,000 year Reich.

    By the time they realised this was not going to be it was too late to "vote them out".

    On the cross, Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

    The majority did and they and others from most lands paid the supreme sacrifice to end it.
     
  18. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    I have no doubt at all there was opposition to Hitler, and that all your postings have merit. But like many of my age, we recall the utter adulation. The frenzy of excitement at the mention of his name.

    There is no doubt there were very few that opposed him, and those that did were qickly done away with. There is also no doubt at all, that he attained at his zenith, the adoration almost of a God. His name was mentioned with the same reverence.

    That begs the question: Where would Germany have gone? had he used that power fpr peaceful purposes?
    But that was never going to happen, only the militaristic tendencies of Germany (of that age) could have been responsible for this advance.

    If I sound a bit offhand when discussing Hitler? I have obvious cause. He had the speaking ability to raise a crowd to fever pitch, though these days, it sounds exactly what it was, a tirade, and not a very good one at that. But for a Germany recovering from WW1 He appeared to be a saviour. A Teutonic Knight in shining armour. All that the German Nation pined for!

    We can recall the huge parades. The banners, the torchlight gatherings, and best of all...an easy prey to vent their collective hatred on...The Jews.

    No friends, there was not a lot of opposition to Hitler, and any there was, quickly vanished as the Victories in battle followed one after the other. For the Teutonic Militaristsm, here indeed, was a man of steel that no one could resist and he was GERMAN! During the time when his powers where at their peak..Was there any opposition? ......No friends, none at all.
    Sapper o_O :huh: :rolleyes:
     
  19. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    Have to agree with what you say Sapper. There is also the German psyche: disciplined and rigid obedience after the Treaty of Versailles and the reparations with the loss of the Rhineland in the West( I think it was the Rhineland!). These reparations were viewed by a lot of people including outside of Germany as being harsh. Reparations more likely viewed as humiliation. I believe it was France that refused to compromise on the extent of the reparations. Wilson thought them too harsh. More revenge and rubbing one's nose in it than genuine reparations. Hitler comes on the scene and it snowballs. As Sapper says a saviour the teutonic knight - out of a Wagnerian opera.

    How would one view Canaris. Some would view his behaviour keeping in touch with the British as treacherous. Would you view him as a sort of resistance, or do you think he did it because he wanted Hitler diposed. Can't see how that was going to happen though.

    As was commented on before any resistance would have been crushed out of hand and in the later stages of the war, I think the populus would be more interested in finding food and the omenous awaited Russian army coming from the East. It wouldn't have probably roused interest as any talk of sedition or mention of it would lead to the SS or similar carting them off. The populus knew they were on a loser. Those who considered it and probably thought why bother, concentrate on surviving and hoping. .

    Agree with Sapper with the power he had gained there was only going to be one conclusion. A megalomaniac, the humiliation of the loss to France and the reparations, the loss of land. His vision as carrying on the tradition of the Teutonic Knights. His persecution complex with the Jews. He gets a whole country behind him - and he runs wild. His own personal vendetta and paranoia having free run - even down to the officer corps who he hated because they looked down on him.
     
  20. Warulfsdottyr

    Warulfsdottyr Junior Member

    I have no doubt at all there was opposition to Hitler, and that all your postings have merit. But like many of my age, we recall the utter adulation. The frenzy of excitement at the mention of his name.

    There is no doubt there were very few that opposed him, and those that did were qickly done away with. There is also no doubt at all, that he attained at his zenith, the adoration almost of a God. His name was mentioned with the same reverence.

    That begs the question: Where would Germany have gone? had he used that power fpr peaceful purposes?
    But that was never going to happen, only the militaristic tendencies of Germany (of that age) could have been responsible for this advance.

    If I sound a bit offhand when discussing Hitler? I have obvious cause. He had the speaking ability to raise a crowd to fever pitch, though these days, it sounds exactly what it was, a tirade, and not a very good one at that. But for a Germany recovering from WW1 He appeared to be a saviour. A Teutonic Knight in shining armour. All that the German Nation pined for!

    We can recall the huge parades. The banners, the torchlight gatherings, and best of all...an easy prey to vent their collective hatred on...The Jews.

    No friends, there was not a lot of opposition to Hitler, and any there was, quickly vanished as the Victories in battle followed one after the other. For the Teutonic Militaristsm, here indeed, was a man of steel that no one could resist and he was GERMAN! During the time when his powers where at their peak..Was there any opposition? ......No friends, none at all.
    Sapper o_O :huh: :rolleyes:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election,_1933

    the majority was 44% in 1933 .

    And you may not forget that one of hitlers election pledges was to keep peace ! and it was not only the german nation who believed even chamberlain etc up to the year 1939 !.

    another reason was that hitler - and this was the only positive of his career,promised jobs and he gave jobs.

    Furthermore hitler in deed had a extreme personal allurement and even the british foreignminister made the heil hitler sign in 1938 because he was so excited because of the parades etc.

    and we do not have to argue that the treaty of versailles was extremely unfair - france searched for vengeance since 1871 when it has lost the war with germany , a war france has started because of the emser depesche.To take away the rhineland , the heart of germany is like the french would have taken london , wessex and sussex after wwI - you know this would hurt ! not to forget the incredible reparation up to the year 1983 !

    especially versailles wrote that the sole fault of wwI had to be overtaken by the germans.The austrian prince was shot by the an yugoslawien terrorist - from a panslavian terror organisation.the austrians told the yugoslawian state to hand out the terrorists and as this did not happen after a ultimation declared war to yugoslawian which led to the war declaration of france , britain etc. germany had an alliance with austria and so the war began.of course many generals and leaders wanted war but this was a phenomen in all europe.


    so many people who voted for him were never "real" nazis including to hate jews , being national-socialistic and to be able to commit crimes.

    --
    the teutonic militiarism as you say was not "teutonic" it was prussian and we ( the southgermans) suffered most because of this.
    your so called german psyche of "rigid obedience" was common in all europe in those times - see bomber harris and the other pilots " we had to carry out our duty".the 68er freed us from these way of thinking.
    --

    there were many people who opposed him especially christians , communists and even conservatives .
    otherwise the gestapo would not have been needed !

    furthermore you may not forget how harsh the nazi regime - kriegsdienstverweigerer - the ones who did not want to fight were shot , especially at the end of the war.

    to show resistance and opposition was a death sentence . so many people resisted in their minds sadly not in reality but can you blame them for this ? in an atmosphere were your neighbour could whistle-blow you to the gestapo ?
    I dont think so.

    sapper , you say that everybody "hailed" to the f├╝hrer - how are you able to look at every german hand ?
    and , something you might not know is that not to " hail " was accusable and you know the gestapo...

    many who hailed were no nazis .
    ---

    you say the militaristic tendencies of germany are responsible for this advance , this is true ,..

    but ...have you ever looked on the british history ?

    the last 500 years of british history WERE militaristic from the scottish wars over america up to india , africa , australia etc.
     

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