FJ - from my point of view - I shall accept your apology for this indiscretion but would ask you to remember that we have ladies from many areas in the world on this thread, and I am positive that they are not quite used to having that kind of language that appears to be acceptable in California on this thread. Thank you
Well Done chaps. Did anyone see Who Do You Think You Are? last night? BBC - BBC One Programmes - Who Do You Think You Are? Did you see how the WW2 Veteran Officer reacted when Alan Cumming mentioned Combat Stress, he said we didn't have it back then, we were different people, we were a different country then. But he then admitted to (Post-War) waking his wife up calling out his Platoon Sergeant's name in his sleep and almost killing his young daughter when she crept up behind him to shout Boo!. He'd been at Kohima & involved in some very bloody battles. Times were different then. Attitudes were different then. that's all I wanted to say.
And individual reaction to violent trauma is just as different. Veterans of later conflicts aren't any less men than veterans of older conflicts by the reaction of the horrors they experienced.
Well Done chaps. Did anyone see Who Do You Think You Are? last night? BBC - BBC One Programmes - Who Do You Think You Are? Did you see how the WW2 Veteran Officer reacted when Alan Cumming mentioned Combat Stress, he said we didn't have it back then, we were different people, we were a different country then. But he then admitted to (Post-War) waking his wife up calling out his Platoon Sergeant's name in his sleep and almost killing his young daughter when she crept up behind him to shout Boo!. He'd been at Kohima & involved in some very bloody battles. Times were different then. Attitudes were different then. that's all I wanted to say. You beat me to it Owen. I came back to this thread to recommend the above programme as having a real relevance to this debate - well worth watching! Tom.
Another factor that I always feel tends to be overlooked is the inordinate length of time spent in the various services which was to become the "norm" in WW2. As someone who was only 16 years old when war broke out and was not called up until October 1942 I "got away with" just short of five years service, of which only two years were spent in active combat zones. Some men (and women) spent up to six years in active service, some of which was spent in horrendous conditions and it was this "experience" that was simply expected of those of us who lived through those tumultous days. At the risk of repetition I believe I speak for all veterans on this site when I say that we have never, at any time, sought to belittle the calibre and tenacity of those who fought and still fight other wars to "ours". What we seem to have difficulty in putting across is the fact that if PTS was around in our days we just never had time to consider it There endeth the lesson................ Ron
Thanks for the apology. Does you credit mate, Let me return to the subject of this thread "PTSD" One post on here mentioned the cause was being in bloody battles. OK...Fine... But I have been in almost continuous action. Have been deep into enemy held territory on two occasions. Have taken part in some of the most ferocious battles. Like the night crossing of the Escaut Canal. Pegasus. Caen. Goodwood... the lot! Wounded twice, once by S Mine, second with big bang, fractured spine, legs smashed, lost me knee and nearly every bone cracked. In a whole body plaster for months. This is not boasting but a simple statement of facts (I wouldn't have done it had II had a choice!) But I did not suffer PTS... That malady largely depends on the nature of the person that is in a place of extreme stress. FEAR? did I suffer that? You bet your bibby I did.....And in great big lumps! Mouth drying fear.... We All did. But that is not PTS. "The greatest coward is the greatest hero,for he suffers more Cheers Keep a light in he window) Sapper
I have just mentioned this in another thread but my grandfather suffered terribly on his return from Arnhem,the worse case being nearly killing my grandmother during a nightmare, he tried to strangle her. The episode is contain in the book I am writing and to be honest I found it quite hard emotionally to write, I suppose because it is one of your own. For the book I have researched and delve quite extensively into what was available help wise and with the help of several members of the forum I rapidly came to the conclusion that diddly squat was out there. In his own words my grandfather confessed it was my gran that got him through it and bloody mindedness.
the worse case being nearly killing my grandmother during a nightmare. I remember hearing that from an Arnhem Veteran on TV once, he admitted to waking up with his hands around his wife's neck. I think she was on TV sat next to him.
I remember hearing that from an Arnhem Veteran on TV once, he admitted to waking up with his hands around his wife's neck. I think she was on TV sat next to him. He also totally freaked out during thunder storms as well,this continued up until his death in 1990.He would go round and pull every curtain and turn the Tv or radio up full blast so he didnt have to listen the storm.He use to say it just brought back painful memories.
This is a copy of a PM that I sent to Ron earlier this morning. We corresponded back and forth several times and he recommended that I consider posting it on the thread to see what reaction it gets. I feel strongly about the subject matter as can be determined from the body of the post. "PTSD thread Mr. Goldstein, Please know and understand that I have the utmost respect for you and all the other veterans who suffered the hardships and horrors of combat, and am extremely greatful for what freedoms have been afforded to us as a result of your sacrifices. Words alone cannot express the gratitude properly. There seems to have been much misunderstanding over this thread and the subject matter is covers. I do not wish to disrespect you or anyone in responding with my views due to past problems we have had in the thread. It is hard to get one's point across with the typed word sometimes without making a mistake or appearing in an unpleasant manner. The point of my comment here is Mr. Sapper's post (#5) as follows. I know that you must have read the post, I just want to have it here for reference. "Having seen the effects of battle exhaustion first hand, and knowing that it is caused by a prolonged period of violent battle and even harsher conditions. I wonder where todays cases come from? sapper" To me, that statement was a slap in the face of post-WW2 and current vets and the demons they have to face after their time in combat. My dad fought in Korea and was there for only 17 months before earning enough points to go home, and when he got home, he was still 19 years old. He was wounded once. Now every night, he is back in Korea in his dreams, or nightmares rather. It nagged and bothered him ever since he came back, and now it overcomes him since he is weakened with old age. That is the point I have on the matter. I didn't have any combat during my time in the Army except for fighting with some MPs at Ft. Richardson, Alaska one night, so I can only work with what my dad told me and what I see has happened to him. Thank you sir. Please feel free to tear into my letter. Bobby" End of original PM here. This should in no way be interpreted as an attack on Mr. Sapper at all, rather as an interpretation on my part of his stated view. Anyone who faced the bear is a hero in my book. Maybe I took it in not the way he posted it, but that's just me. As mentioned in the PM to Ron (I called him Mr. Goldstein in the PM, but when he responded, he asked me to call him Ron, it still feels inappropriate I must add), I have no combat experience save for fighting with the MPs and getting a flashlight (y'all call them torches I believe) cracked over my head during the melee (and yes, I deserved it), so I have no dog in the fight except for my dad and friends who were Vietnam vets who weren't looked upon in the same light as the men who fought in WW2 after coming home, at least here in the states. I have strong feelings about those who suffer from PTSD. We have a lot of young men (boys seems like) coming home now dealing with their demons, just like in Britain and in the other Allied countries serving in SW Asia during the current unpleasantness. Everyone deals with stress, fatigue, trauma, combat, sickness, etc in their own way. I am a policeman here in Louisiana if anyone doesn't know, and have been for 28 1/2 years. Been in a couple of shooting situations (got shot at, and wasn't able to return fire), but nothing exciting enough to make a movie or TV show out of, but have friends who were able to return fire and dispatch the alleged perpatrators with extreme predjudice. One friend didn't take the situation very well and was removed from uniform patrol soon afterwards, and the other one, well he must be a true warrior at heart because the situation bothered him as much as stepping on a bug. Terrible situations both were, but nothing compared to sustained combat like described by Ron, Tom and Sapper earlier. Some people deal with it better than others is my point. The same with grief. Some fall apart and some are the glue that holds the rest of the family together.
The very idea that I would talk down, or belittle the efforts, or suffering, of any Vet from any zone, is absolutely stupid, and ridiculous. I respect all those from any quarter that have seen, and experienced the threat of death, from any direction, or zone. As to a slap in the face? my only reaction to that is a straight forward reply ..."don't be daft" At the same time, I just wish that so many here would not insist that we suffered PTS as a normal reaction to great violence. It is just not like that... That there are those that suffer from the malady, there is no doubt. And all my sympathy goes to them. BUT not all of us are afflicted.... not be a long way. That does not mean that you are braver, or courageous in battle. It is just that it depends on your character, and your outlook on life. The membership here seem to have this fixation that anyone subject to a severe shock, or prolonged fighting..... MUST HAVE PTS.... its just not like that. The only thing that made me angry, was the obstacles put in the way of the returning wounded Veterans, when trying to get back into work. Then, like so many Vets .. I made my own way, and was prepared to fight to get it On our return to civilian life, we were still young man, and were treated like young men.... Even though we had seen and done things others would never experience, So I will admit to a quick temper.. And a willingness to take on anything, or anyone, that stood in my way...Nothing new in that... ! I had that before I joined.. BIG GRIN! I expect that my Vet mates will agree with me, that we were not "Shrinking Violets" But more in the battle hardened grouping ...Even Bigger GRIN I think this is highly amusing...Being 85 and talking about taking on anything to get our way. An Arthritic Sapper. PS. Now if you are talking about arthritis and aching bones? Then I am your man !
And that from Sapper should address all concerns raised I would have thought. My thoughts exactly. It does exist, Not all suffer it. How we got into having a go at anyone who had been at the sharp end including our beloved yankee I dont know.
It does exist, Not all suffer it. That is exactly it; It affects everyone, some much more than others. I think PTSD can be described as fitting into any of the three categories or phases. There are those that: Suffer from it, Deal with it or Experience it. The other misnomer is : "Disorder". Disorders can be anything from Bells Palsey to Polio to any number of unsavory things most of which have some form of pity or stigma attached to them. Disorder in this case refers to the way the brain processes emotion and how the body and mind react to that emotion. It's not necessarily a bad thing. This is a poem I found while bumping around over the last week, although I have condensed it I have changed nothing: Summer days of June. Do ghostly battles still rage across The distant misty fields of France And if we listen very closely now? Hear the sounds of their advance Do the ghosts of the old infantry, Still in open battle order march? Was that a last despairing scream, From across the canal river marsh? All at once a hot steel splinter, Quick, sudden, spurts of blood Flesh flayed down to ivory bone Soaks the blood bespattered mud. In that quiet moment of early dawn The sounds of war, now very far away Hear the wounded call? Help me, So long ago, another summer’s day And yet in this quiet lonely moment When all of nature’s voices came still Across the ripe, swaying corn fields The bocage, where we came to kill. I can still hear the guns of Normandy But that was long ago, the distant past The loss of friends, in Normandy. May their memory forever last Creativity is a way that some find to express their emotions and deal with PTSD. Many with PTSD find it easier to express their emotions through writing, sculpture, painting, music or some other form of creation. Writing wether it be poetry or books is also very common among more recent veterans: Leckie, Sledge, Uris, Memeiux (Sajer), Hemmingway, Poe, Francis Scott Key. Often the most moving material, such as I used above, is written/ created by those who were there and the reader can feel the emotion of the author. I think it illustrates how somone experiences and deals with their PTSD. On the other end of the spectrum is what we all stereotypically expect from somone "suffering" from PTSD to present: Violence, Abuse, Alcoholism etc. Of course there are varying levels of this and all are open to interpetation. What may be interpeted as violence by one person may be interpeted as a quick temper by another. Emotional detachment can easily be confused with abuse and while some may think that 5 or 6 cocktails in the evening is excessive others do not. The ability to put the experience into context is the key.
Hang on HANG ON! Come off it.....I wrote that.. Two things. You spoiled it by shortening it. And it has nothing to do with PTS, as I wrote that not so long ago, and the war has been over 65 years.... Its just a recall of the sacrifices made for freedom by those that never returned. (That is exactly it; It affects everyone, some much more than others) Your words ... What makes you think you know what others experience? I and many others never suffered anything from the war, except what the enemy did to our limbs. You do take an awful lot on with your opinion..... I penned that, I am the Author...and you rather cut short a verse written in memory of brave men. The pseudonym of "Sapper" covers for my real name of Brian Guy. On the net, you will find many other poems and verse by me. I have a large portfolio of verse both serious and amusing.... So I assume that the funny ones indicate PTS? So how does this one measure up to PTS The Darkening. Now comes the darkening of the night Slithering, slowly creeping, full of fright In distant corners, faint shapes appear That vanish, gone, when you draw near Behind the door, faint sounds are heard Dreaded, yet understanding, not a word A ghostly cold, now invades the bones We realise, shivering, we are not alone Faint misty shapes, like old faces loom In the darkest realms, of my unlit room But fade and drift, and change their form Lit by summer lightning, a distant storm. Around the door now, a faint yellow light. A rustling sound, brings a ghastly fright In the darkness close, the steps of death. Is it the coming of that ancient. Seth? Mindless terror now, invades my soul I must fight this fear, not lose control. The door flies open, they’ve come for me! But it’s my Missus with the morning tea. Brian Guy March 2007 Sapper My wife says if you have pts you waited a long time, while we had children, grandchildren, and great grand children
Hang on HANG ON! Come off it.....I wrote that.. Two things. You spoiled it by shortening it. And it has nothing to do with PTS, as I wrote that not so long ago, and the war has been over 65 years.... Its just a recall of the sacrifices made for freedom by those that never returned. (That is exactly it; It affects everyone, some much more than others) Your words ... What makes you think you know what others experience? I and many others never suffered anything from the war, except what the enemy did to our limbs. You do take an awful lot in your opinion..... I penned that, I am the Author...and you rather cut short a verse written in memory of brave men. The pseudonym of "Sapper" covers for my real name of Brian Guy. On the net, you will find many other poems and verse by me. I have a large portfolio of verse both serious and amusing.... Sapper Brian I am not inferring you suffer from anything. Your poetry is how you wish to deal with and share your experience. I didn't post that in an attempt of pointing fingers and saying: "Ha ha Sappers got the PTSD too". I posted as an example of the emotion that be conveyed through the works of persons with first hand experience of traumatic events and how the same feelings they experienced during the event can be expressed years later through a creative outlet such as poetry. ...So how does this one measure up to PTS The Darkening. Now comes the darkening of the night Slithering, slowly creeping, full of fright In distant corners, faint shapes appear That vanish, gone, when you draw near Behind the door, faint sounds are heard Dreaded, yet understanding, not a word A ghostly cold, now invades the bones We realise, shivering, we are not alone Faint misty shapes, like old faces loom In the darkest realms, of my unlit room But fade and drift, and change their form Lit by summer lightning, a distant storm. Around the door now, a faint yellow light. A rustling sound, brings a ghastly fright In the darkness close, the steps of death. Is it the coming of that ancient. Seth? Mindless terror now, invades my soul I must fight this fear, not lose control. The door flies open, they’ve come for me! But it’s my Missus with the morning tea. Brian Guy March 2007. Sapper My wife says if you have pts you waited along time, while we had children, grandchildren, and great grand children Brian....Again, I am not saying you need help. All Iam saying is that your expression, through poetry, is how you have dealt with your experiences. Wether the poetry be dramatic or humorous it is your expression. When did you start writing poetry?
Its got nothing to do with my writing about my experiences, it is merely an attempt to keep the memory of the young men alive. You my friend, assume far too much. I have been writing for some time as a (past time) I never did have PTS. But I will own up to having given one or two others a dose iof it.... Sapper PS. the only emotion I get, is one of savagery when folk try to tell me what I suffer from. And if I dont get my breakfast...
Formerjughead Rudyard Kipling had it spot on when he wrote "East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet" Seeing you & Brian at loggerheads reminds me so much of an irresistable force meeting an immovable object. Please, if only for the sake of peace and quiet on this forum, just accept, for once, that: 1. The oldies on this forum will always think differently to you. 2. The oldies on this forum will never accept that they ever suffered from the effects of PTS and, as I have already pointed out to you, were too busy fighting a war to have ever had time for it. 3. The oldies on this forum would certainly know better than to truncate any of Brian's beautiful poetry Ron
