Post Traumatic Stress

Discussion in 'Veteran Accounts' started by Trincomalee, Oct 3, 2007.

  1. Capt Bill

    Capt Bill wanderin off at a tangent

    from the US Dept of Veterans Affairs

    PTSD and Older Veterans

    From the time of Homer's ancient story of the battle between the Trojans and the Greeks, and the times of the Bible and Shakespeare, military personnel have been confronted by the trauma of war. Recent books and movies have highlighted the impact of war trauma on veterans of the Vietnam War and the Persian Gulf War. However, the traumas faced by veterans of World War II and the Korean conflict have been publicly acknowledged in the media less often and less clearly. The recent movie, "Saving Private Ryan," showed the reality of war trauma during World War II. World War II was terrifying and shocking for hundreds of thousands of American military personnel. For most World War II veterans, memories of the war can still be upsetting more than 50 years later, even if the memories arise only occasionally and for brief periods. For a smaller number of World War II veterans, the war trauma memories still cause severe problems, in the form of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder, or PTSD.
    How does war affect "normal," "healthy" military personnel?

    War is a life threatening experience that involves witnessing and engaging in terrifying and gruesome acts of violence. Most military personnel also feel that participating in war is their patriotic duty, and they do so to protect and defend their country, their loved ones, their values, and their way of life. The trauma of war is the shocking confrontation with death, devastation, and violence. It is normal for human beings to react to war's psychic trauma with feelings of fear, anger, grief, and horror, as well as with emotional numbness and disbelief.
    Many studies have shown that the more prolonged, extensive, and horrifying a soldier's or sailor's exposure to war trauma, the more likely it is that she or he will become emotionally worn down and exhausted. This happens to even the strongest and healthiest of individuals, and often it is precisely these soldiers who are the most psychologically disturbed by war because they endure so much of the trauma. Most war heroes don't feel brave or heroic at the time, but they do their duty, despite often feeling overwhelmed and horrified, in order to protect others.
    It is, therefore, no surprise that when military personnel have had severe difficulty recovering from the trauma of war, their psychological difficulties have been described as "soldier's heart" (in the Civil War), "shell shock" (in World War I), or "combat fatigue" (in World War II). After World War II, psychiatrists realized that these problems usually were not an inborn mental illness like schizophrenia or manic depressive illness but were a different form of psychological dis-ease that resulted from too much exposure to war trauma. This form of psychological dis-ease is known as "traumatic war neurosis" or Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Although most war veterans are troubled by war memories, many were fortunate enough either to have not experienced an overwhelming amount of trauma exposure or to have immediate and lasting help from family, friends, and spiritual and psychological counselors so that the memories have become manageable. A smaller number, probably about one in twenty World War II veterans, had so much war trauma and so many readjustment difficulties that they now suffer from PTSD.
    How is it possible to have PTSD 50 years after a war?

    Because most World War II veterans received a hero's welcome and a booming peacetime economy when they returned to the states, many were able to make a successful readjustment to civilian life. They coped, more or less successfully, with their memories of traumatic events. Many had disturbing memories or nightmares, difficulty with work pressure or close relationships, and problems with anger or nervousness, but few sought treatment for their symptoms or discussed the emotional effects of their wartime experiences. Society expected them to put it all behind them, forget the war, and get on with their lives. But as they grew older and went through changes in the patterns of their lives-retirement, the death of spouse and friends, deteriorating health, and declining physical vigor-many experienced more difficulty with war memories or stress reactions. Some had enough trouble to be diagnosed with a delayed onset of PTSD symptoms, sometimes with other disorders like depression and alcohol abuse. Such PTSD often occurs in subtle ways. For example, a World War II veteran who had a long successful career as an attorney and judge and a loving relationship with his wife and family might find upon retiring and having a heart attack that he suddenly felt panicky and trapped when going out in public. Upon closer examination, with a sensitive helpful counselor, he might find that the fear is worst when riding in his car, and this may relate to trauma memories of deaths among his unit when he was a tank commander in World War II.
     
  2. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Finally -
    after miles of arguement -wherein Sapper - Ron and myself have been called many things - least of all "ENLIGHTENED" - we have a statement from one of the many enlightened to the effect that just maybe - even possibly if not probably we three ignorant WW2 Veterans who claimed to having NO knowledge of PSTD although we have been inundated with many facts - figures - historical anecdotes that this malaise has been around since Noah allegedly floated his Ark...

    I shall not give an extract or link to this FACT but refer you to the posting # 147
    by one Alan Allport - and you can all read it your bloody selves -

    apologies will be accepted between the hours of 10a.m. and 6 p.m. daily- as we STILL sympathise with those sufferers !
    Cheers
     
  3. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    I often wonder Tom where we are going as a Nation? I have this feeling that we belonged to the "Go and get the enemy" rather than the Fire at him from behind a wall. There seems to be a totally different outlook as one of us said its wonder the troops can fight with what they have to carry..... Bullet proof vests Clobber.Imagine running across a road under Mc gun fir with that lot on your back...
    Sapper
     
  4. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Sapper -
    I gave up some time ago wondering about that when I saw a video of a rifleman with an automatic in full bullet proof gear - crouching behind a five foot high wall - jumping up and firing off a few rounds over that same wall - at god knows what enemy - then crouchng down again - then a quick look at the casualty's to discover that many of them were caused by traffic accidents such as the kind that fills the emergency rooms at week-ends by teenagers with a few beers inside them...

    NOW before anyone jumps down my throat for being ignorant etc - I too see the corteges moving through Wootton Bassett and my friend Colin lives there and we have discussed this - I also know that a Hospital in Birmingham is full to running over and spilling into the Birmingham General - and that great work is being done at Headley Court - and that a man without a leg is denied a car park ticket as he "might get better" so yes sapper - I agree - I often wonder what is becoming of the once Great Britain.....and an ex Prime Minister who is about to make another fortune by telling us that he didn't have the guts to stand up to his own choice of Chancellor - it's becoming a very funny world - and at the risk of upsetting Gerard - I call it "Diabolical Disorientation"
    Cheers
     
  5. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    Finally -
    after miles of arguement -wherein Sapper - Ron and myself have been called many things - least of all "ENLIGHTENED" - we have a statement from one of the many enlightened to the effect that just maybe - even possibly if not probably we three ignorant WW2 Veterans who claimed to having NO knowledge of PSTD although we have been inundated with many facts - figures - historical anecdotes that this malaise has been around since Noah allegedly floated his Ark...

    I shall not give an extract or link to this FACT but refer you to the posting # 147
    by one Alan Allport - and you can all read it your bloody selves -

    apologies will be accepted between the hours of 10a.m. and 6 p.m. daily- as we STILL sympathise with those sufferers !
    Cheers

    Put what ever kind of a twist to it you want and be a martyr of your choosing; but, I think all three of you are full of sh*t.
    For whatever reason you three have assigned "shame" to PTSD and that leads me to believe you don't understand what it is.

    For the three of you to say: None of you has ever had a dream about your experience, never allowed your thoughts to drift back, never flinched at an unexpected loud noise and never woken up in the middle of the night to ensure your house and family are secure?

    I have used the analogy before of PTSD being like taking a pee in the shower: "There are those that do it and there are those that lie about it."
    Peeing in the shower is a metaphor by the way.
     
    Heimbrent likes this.
  6. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Gentlemen, as comments have spiralled ever downwards, this thread is now closed.
     
  7. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    We three Vets are full of.... I would like to be able to take one or two members here, out on a fighting patrol or two. We would then see who is full of ****

    Between the three of us that are under fire. Its true to say we saw more action than that laddie had hot dinners.
    Sapper :rolleyes:
     
  8. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Sapper I closed that thread and gave my reason. Please take it to PM if you wish to continue the discussion with the party concerned.
     
  9. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Hi Diane

    As one of the three WW2 veterans described by another forum member as being full of excreta, may I, using debating terms, raise a point of order ?

    May I ask what the official position is when dealing with a member who has used foul language when addressing other members ?

    I can well understand the reason behind the closure of the thread, as this has always been the ultimate perogative of Moderators on any website when the ambient temperature has come to a boiling point.

    What I find harder to understand is the closure of a thread leaving intact the last response made by someone who appears to have broken all the rules by his conduct.

    I would appreciate a reply and would stress that I have no desire at all to enter into any form of correspondence, by PM or indeed any other means, with the offending party.

    Many thanks

    Ron
     
  10. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek

    I haven't read the thread but that member should be banned for at least a short time or in my view banned outright.
     
  11. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique

    Ron - I think we just did not want it to escalate further, which is why it was closed.

    I can assure you the comments were taken seriously, and we will deal with them once we've had a chance to discuss it properly.
     
  12. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Ron
    Thanks for ensuring that this was brought to our attention, it was already being dealt with.

    Regards
    Diane
     
  13. blacksnake

    blacksnake As old as I feel.

    Hi Diane

    As one of the three WW2 veterans described by another forum member as being full of excreta, may I, using debating terms, raise a point of order ?

    May I ask what the official position is when dealing with a member who has used foul language when addressing other members ?......

    Ron... Brian... The thread in question was closed before most of 'talks' members (including myself) got to read it, which is probably for the best. I take it the offending member is not himself a veteran? I think I speak for the majority of members when I say, you guys are held in the highest esteem here on 'talk'. I agree with Brian, take the geeza on a "Live" patrol... and watch the S*** fly !!!! ASS***E!
     
  14. WhiskeyGolf

    WhiskeyGolf Senior Member

    Ron... Brian... The thread in question was closed before most of 'talks' members (including myself) got to read it, which is probably for the best. I take it the offending member is not himself a veteran? I think I speak for the majority of members when I say, you guys are held in the highest esteem here on 'talk'.

    I second that blacksnake.
    WG
     
  15. marcus69x

    marcus69x I love WW2 meah!!!

    Missed the thread. Sounds like it would've been interesting reading.

    Don't you worry about 'em Brian. Just doils mate.
     
  16. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Marcus

    Have sent you a PM

    Ron
     
  17. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    I seem to have missed this thread, but it seems to show that some people do not respect what the Vets have done for us. Below is something my father said that I taped.

    "If you listen to the elderly you may gain some knowledge of what was achieved by the sacrifices of our war veterans. Had it not been for our War-Time Heroes you would not be enjoying the fruits of life as we know today. Concentration and Extermination Camps would have been in existence as they were in Europe and were witnessed by British troops serving in Reconnaissance Regiment’s of the RAC leading the advance into Germany as it was with other Allied troops in their sector who were also witnessing these horrible scenes. Our job was to keep pushing on and getting the war over with and bringing to justice who were responsible for these atrocities." T H Mitchell [RE, Grenadier & Recce]


    Cheers
    Paul
     
  18. urqh

    urqh Senior Member

    Ive had my say. Suffice to say ww2vets are honoured here thats what the site is about. We all though have living or dead parents etc who are personally honoured to an even greater extent. Certainly no vet trumps my old mans own stories or for that matter my mums. Vets of the following generations suffered simmilar bouts of action..no one and Imean no one can tell me otherwise. The offender in this case saw more bullets flying than most of us on here ever did or ever will yank or not. Back off.
     
  19. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    My, what fun I return to after a weekend in the country.

    FJ, any other place and the direct abuse might have got you binned for good.

    But.

    As it's on this thread, which has gone well into 'grown-ups rules', and generated others since it was closed. I'll merge in the other 'spin off' thread, then leave it all to chill for a week. *
    After that week I'll re-open, reinstate one man that was marched to the Guardhouse to cool down, and cease moderation.

    This thread seems worthy of making a bit of a special case for.
    This stuff is interesting. Nobody's surprised it might get overheated.
    If all who've been to war, or have a strong personal viewpoint on PTSD, can respect one another's personal experiences, then we should be able to talk about this like grown-ups. The veterans of any war have earnt some leeway on hard and often very personal stuff like this.

    If it's at all possible to keep it mildly civil then I'd like the discussion to go on.
    Particularly if the current closure might encourage a spread of acrimony to other parts of the forum.

    Cheers,
    ~Adam

    *Edit - Have merged in the 'spin-off' thread, Posts 167-178 above.

    Edit: Thread Re-opened.
     
  20. Formerjughead

    Formerjughead Senior Member

    In an attempt to avoid picking a scab I wish to appologize for my choice of words as it was not my intention to cause offense or infer discredit upon any member regardless of their status.

    With that in mind: Ron (Ron Goldstein), Tom (Tom Canning) and Brian (Sapper) , Sirs it is with sincererity that I apologize for my choice of words and any offense it may have caused, as doing so was not my intention.

    Anyone who wishes to call into account my vitae may do so either in this thread or through the PM system.

    Again, I do apologize.

    Brad
     
    von Poop likes this.

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