Myth: Britain won World War II

Discussion in 'Historiography' started by grimmy, Oct 25, 2011.

  1. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    let no one ever say the German soldier was not highly trained, tenacious and brave. For what ever else they did he was at least that....
    Sapper
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I didn't say the German soldier was a bad one, I only said he was good as any one other. Same for the often derided Italian or French, by themselves they were quite good, and the blood they shed in defence of their homeland was as red as any other, as red as Russian blood. As often said already, there are no bad soldiers, only bad training and command systems, motivation, indoctrination, supply, everything else.

    If one or more of these fails, then Joe Bloggs, Henri Durand, Giuseppe Franchini, or Ivan Ivanovich pay the price.

    I can't speak for the later stages of the war but from what I've read - In 1940 he wasn't anything special.
     
  3. Dave55

    Dave55 Very Senior Member

    let no one ever say the German soldier was not highly trained, tenacious and brave. For what ever else they did he was at least that....
    Sapper

    Some where sadistic, cowardly bullies, judging from the photos and movies of them that I've seen.

    Dave
     
  4. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

  5. cbiwv

    cbiwv Junior Member

    I can't speak for the later stages of the war but from what I've read - In 1940 he wasn't anything special.


    And we all know the movies have portrayed everything WW2 in a accurate manner.
     
  6. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    YU!P We British won the war... With the Genius of the code breakers and unraveling ther Enigma machine. by creating the first computer
     
  7. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    YU!P We British won the war... With the Genius of the code breakers and unraveling ther Enigma machine. by creating the first computer
    Eh, you British were part of an alliance that won the war, :lol:, you didnt win it on your own!!! Computers, Radar or not.:)
     
  8. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Oh yes we did ..For if we had succumbed after Dunkirk, Hitler would have won...If you are in any doubt ask any Vet here.... We won the war, others supplied the man power:)

    Let there be no doubt either, that the British have a fighting quality that is surpassed nowhere in this world. They are dogged scrappers...... That is why the British were given the job of taking ion the Panzer's around Caen and destroying them; to let the Americans get on with the Cherbourg peninsula.

    We kept the Panzer's away from the Americans by our constant thrusts here, there, everywhere:)

    What is more the Americans treated us wonderfully ...
     
  9. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Oh yes we did ..For if we had succumbed after Dunkirk, Hitler would have won...If you are in any doubt ask any Vet here.... We won the war, others supplied the man power:)

    Let there be no doubt either, that the British have a fighting quality that is surpassed nowhere in this world. They are dogged scrappers...... That is why the British were given the job of taking ion the Panzer's around Caen and destroying them; to let the Americans get on with the Cherbourg peninsula.

    We kept the Panzer's away from the Americans by our constant thrusts here, there, everywhere:)

    What is more the Americans treated us wonderfully ...
    It wasnt just the British and Americans you know............... :)
     
  10. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    True! True! But there is no doubt whatsoever, that we were the BEST. When it came to depending on a fighting force that would take on the best of the Panzer naturally they chose the British:)

    For whatever is said or posted... we did just that...... Its there for all to see.GREAT BIG GRIN:)
     
  11. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    True! True! But there is no doubt whatsoever, that we were the BEST. When it came to depending on a fighting force that would take on the best of the Panzer naturally they chose the British:)

    For whatever is said or posted... we did just that...... Its there for all to see.GREAT BIG GRIN:)
    Oh indeed, Brian! But Equally you could look at the fact that those brave Germans took on the cream of the British Empire and the United States and despite having no airpower worth speaking of, they managed to hold out for weeks following D-Day and still held on to Caen!! Its all a matter of how you look at things...........;)
     
  12. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    I have paid fulsome praise on the Germans efficiency.... THough I hate their guts for the atrocities they committed. The ordeinary german Soldier was OKI but the SS? That is a different story
     
  13. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    I have paid fulsome praise on the Germans efficiency.... THough I hate their guts for the atrocities they committed. The ordeinary german Soldier was OKI but the SS? That is a different story

    My friend from church said the same thing.

    He said that after the butchery in Belgium during December, 1944, his unit got far less inclined to take SS as prisoners. He said that they did not go out of their way to kill them, but the SS prisoners had better not even bat an eye. As far as the German army prisoners were concerned, he said that they treated them kindly usually, unless they got mouthy or did not follow instructions.
     
  14. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    True! True! But there is no doubt whatsoever, that we were the BEST. When it came to depending on a fighting force that would take on the best of the Panzer naturally they chose the British:)

    For whatever is said or posted... we did just that...... Its there for all to see.GREAT BIG GRIN:)
    I Think the British Army was a fantastic army, just like the US Army and the Soviet Army, no better, no worse. :lol:
     
  15. Dave55

    Dave55 Very Senior Member

    My friend from church said the same thing.

    He said that after the butchery in Belgium during December, 1944, his unit got far less inclined to take SS as prisoners. He said that they did not go out of their way to kill them, but the SS prisoners had better not even bat an eye. As far as the German army prisoners were concerned, he said that they treated them kindly usually, unless they got mouthy or did not follow instructions.

    My uncle told me a story many years ago about the SS. He was searching an SS prisoner in Normandy when the guy spit at him. His officer told him to 'Take him back to the rear,' or words to that effect. I don't know where he took him, battalion headquarters maybe? Anyway, when he got back he got yelled at for being gone for so long. Apparently he was only supposed to take him around the first bend in the road and shoot him.

    Dave
     
  16. cbiwv

    cbiwv Junior Member

    True! True! But there is no doubt whatsoever, that we were the BEST. When it came to depending on a fighting force that would take on the best of the Panzer naturally they chose the British:)

    For whatever is said or posted... we did just that...... Its there for all to see.GREAT BIG GRIN:)


    :lol: You guys did your share.
     
  17. cbiwv

    cbiwv Junior Member

    I have paid fulsome praise on the Germans efficiency.... THough I hate their guts for the atrocities they committed. The ordeinary german Soldier was OKI but the SS? That is a different story


    Sapper did the SS troops behave differently than the ordinary German soldier? By this I mean when they were captured they behaved in a more difficult manner. I have read that both committed crimes, however, a little more common with the SS.
     
  18. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    They most certainly did act differently. For a start, they murdered our men they captured in cold blood, It had to be a very pitiful SS man to be captured after that.

    We captured them at regular intervals, and a more surly group would be hard to find. Th ordinary Wehrmacht when captured would often get on the end of a stretcher to help out with the wounded..The SS had to be watched every second...

    One arrogant bastard had too much mouth to an East York's Infantry sergeant. Who hit him so hard he lifted him off the ground. You may recall my telling of the SS officer the SS booby trapped..Nothing was to bad for those horrible fanatics.....

    If I captured a wehrmacht soldier and he did not cause trouble. I lit a cigarette shoved it in his mouth, put his hands on his head, and pointed the way back on his own.....You can picture the happy fellow hands on head puffing away on his cigarette mooching away to the rear. We hated escorting prisoners...

    SS? Murderous thugs. That some where taken prisoner shows the civilised outlook of our men.. Specially Snipers.I do not think any sniper that stays behind to kill, should be allowed to live. When the front moved forward its time to come out into the open or pay the consequence's... Shoot the bastard.

    See what a nice old gentleman I am?
    Sapper
     
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  19. cbiwv

    cbiwv Junior Member

    Sapper I spoke to a American officer who met SS officer Max Wunsche. He said Max was one of the nicest guys he ever met and that he was very intelligent. He mentioned Max was one of those few people you meet and remember it for the rest of your life.
     
  20. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    Brian

    Sitting on my favourite couch this evening, half dozing whilst watching Question time, I had my iPad on my lap and was also watching this thread for new developments.


    I read this little piece of yours:


    If I captured a wehrmacht soldier and he did not cause trouble. I lit a cigarette shoved it in his mouth, put his hands on his head, and pointed the way back on his own.....You can picture the happy fellow hands on head puffing away on his cigarette mooching away to the rear. We hated escorting prisoners...

    It rang such a chord with me I left Dimbleby to his own devices and hastened to my study to look up something I had previously written on the same subject.

    While I remember

    Friday 13th. April 1945
    Moved over Santerno. Some M.G. nuisance and one H.E. about twenty yards away. Bags of prisoners, Kiss from Signora. "Liberatoris !". Chasing after tedeschis with 30 browning blazing!

    The Browning machine gun referred to was rarely fired in anger, the exception being on this one occasion when I nearly killed Hewie our Stuart Tank driver.

    We had been on the move all day and the Germans were surrendering left, right and centre.

    To our left, about two hundred yards away, German infantry were climbing out of slit trenches with their hands high and we were gesturing to them to get behind us and to make their way to the rear.

    Suddenly someone to our right opened light rifle fire at us and Busty (SSM ‘Busty’ Thomas) lost patience and yelled at me "Let the bastards have it!"

    Hewie swung the tank to the right so we could face the new threat and I started firing non-stop, without giving Hewie a chance to drop his adjustable seat down below the level of fire belching from the Browning. A horrified Busty yelled:"Get down you stupid bastard!" and to my immediate relief Hewie disappeared from view before I could hit him.

    In the early hours of this morning, after a fairly sleepless night, I found myself thinking about those days and realised that I'd never actually finished the story so, with your pernission, I'd like to add a postscript.

    The action described above had come to a bit of a standstill and the Squadron ground to a halt. As the local firing had died down, Busty told Hewie & I that we could dismount and attend to any bodily functions or make a quick brew-up.

    While we were making our minds up, Tommy gun in his hand, he walked ahead of our tank to examine a small area of bushes directly to our front. Before he actually got there about three or four Jerries emerged, hands held high.

    The oldest could have been no older than fifteen and they made a sorry sight, we were seeing for the first time examples of the Hitler Jugend.

    Busty, caught completely off his guard by the unexpected appearance of the enemy, however harmless that they might have been, grabbed hold of the first one, spun him round and half-heartedly kicked him up the backside shouting as he did so "You stupid effer!.... you could have killed me !"

    He was quite right of course..... Busty Thomas M.M., who had managed to survive the war in the desert, two escapes from a POW camp and countless enemy action in Italy could have been brought down only minutes before by these desperate youngsters who now faced us in abject submission.

    And probably me as well.

    It's funny what you can think about at 4:30 in the morning ![

    If I remember nothing else from my days with the 4th QOH, it was that no-one wanted to have to escort prisoners back to the rear when we had the bit between our teeth and, for once, in Italy, were on the move forward.


    Ron
     

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