Hang on! You ask Tom. Ron or myself: Sapper.... who won the war? Good Lord I should have thought that was obvious... We did .All the Vets here will agree I am sure. We did it....... I know I did What about Old codgers the Vets here? We did on our own ..Did we not? Bloody sure we did Onward ever onward... Ha, wonderful words! Best, Steve.
Let us not also forget those who never saw the fruits of their endeavours such as the men of 166 Squadron RAF Bomber Command. Over 900 men from this one Squadron alone were to perish before the final victory was declared, amongst them a much loved brother who left behind a widow to bring up two young children. Lest we forget ! Ron
Blimey.....This is new to me...I'm going to lie down now...I spend most of my life...boring I know...telling folk the Yanks had allies on ww2f. Now Slips doing similar here....He's my dad by the way. So he's the one who stole your uncle's wallet eh? Dang rednecks.
Let us not also forget those who never saw the fruits of their endeavours such as the men of 166 Squadron RAF Bomber Command. Over 900 men from this one Squadron alone were to perish before the final victory was declared, amongst them a much loved brother who left behind a widow to bring up two young children. Lest we forget ! Ron Hi Ron, 49 of them were Australian lads. Wonder what the Commonwealth mix was for 166sq. Australian 460sq lost 1010 killed (60% Australian/40% British). They usually have a list of 200 in the full squadron so............ 460sq and 166sq were virtually wiped out 5 times each. Probably lost at least 250+ aircraft along the way. Cheers Geoff
Geoff Many thanks for spotting my original typo (116 Sqn, when it should have said 166) and, even more importantly, quoting the Commonwealth mix in the squadron. Whenever I see a thread dealing with the rights or wrongs of bombing Dresden I am taken back to the first time I studied the Squadron book "On Wings of War" and saw what was described in Napoleonic times as "the butcher's bill". As it's author, Jim Wright, so aptly put it "We were in the main, very young, 18, 19, 20 with just a small handful a little older" The flower of British & Commonwealth youth were to die for a common cause. We must not and dare not forget them ! Ron
Geoff Many thanks for spotting my original typo (116 Sqn, when it should have said 166) and, even more importantly, quoting the Commonwealth mix in the squadron. Whenever I see a thread dealing with the rights or wrongs of bombing Dresden I am taken back to the first time I studied the Squadron book "On Wings of War" and saw what was described in Napoleonic times as "the butcher's bill". As it's author, Jim Wright, so aptly put it "We were in the main, very young, 18, 19, 20 with just a small handful a little older" The flower of British & Commonwealth youth were to die for a common cause. We must not and dare not forget them ! Ron Ron, Absolutely. I dread to think what would have happened without the Commonwealth and other Allied nations. We owe such a debt of gratitude for all the self sacrifice that so many young people made, with a huge percentage paying the ultimate price. We must never forget. Regards Tom
These people. Oh I get by with a little help from my friends Other people. Suppose my neighbor's home catches fire, and I have a length of garden hose 400 or 500 feet away. If he can take my garden hose and connect it up with his hydrant, I may help him to put out his fire. Now, what do I do? I don't say to him before that operation, "Neighbor, my garden hose cost me $15; you have to pay me $15 for it." What is the transaction that goes on? I don't want $15 - I want my garden hose back after the fire is over. All right. If it goes through the fire all right, intact, without any damage to it, he gives it back to me and thanks me very much for the use of it. But suppose it gets smashed up - holes in it - during the fire; we don't have to have too much formality about it, but I say to him, "I was glad to lend you that hose; I see I can't use it any more, it's all smashed up." He says, "How many feet of it were there?" I tell him, "There were 150 feet of it." He says, "All right, I will replace it." Now, if I get a nice garden hose back, I am in pretty good shape.
I am always suspicious of American films. I am mindful of the fact that we had help from all the Commonwealth countries before the Americans joined us - and would they even then have joined, without the prod from Japan attacking Pearl Harbour? And I will not speak about the horror that was Lend-Lease. Edna
The other outstanding fact was the Second World War resulted in Great Britain being bankrupt and as the Great War and the leading creditor was the US.In the vanguard for victory, cost Great Britain substantially in the economic order, in addition to losing its Empire. The British railway system,electricity system and mining industry were flogged to death during the war without ongoing investment,not that there was much prewar, in a period of low economic activity.It took state control to turn round these industries. Anybody living through this era can testify to that.(In this village,water supplies were on wells and town main water only became available when the army set up camps) The other point in the critical years when Britain stood alone,the only way the country could hit back into the heart of Germany was by air.The fledling Bomber Command did not have the head start that the Germans had who were preparing for war at the expense of living standards. Some might dispute that but Goering won the day with his policy of "guns before butter..butter makes you fat".He took over the four year plan in 1937 from Hjalmar Schacht to unsure that the Nazi regime was kept on track in its preparation for war.Of course it was Hitler's policy that war would cost him little financially.His idea was that the defeated would pay for war with Germany as Vichy France and the others defeated, found out to their cost.
We talk of the Americans coming in late - we should view this in the light of history, why would they want to? They broke away from a Europe continually at war. Some said the war of Independence was British people fighting British people over the rulings of a German King. Many American politicians did not trust us- they were not alone. American politicians had seen what Europe had done to itself a couple of decades earlier. who would not wish to stay out of round two? Churchill (himself half American) understood the reasoning of the Americans, he also knew that the war would be won by industrialists - the factories would provide the victory Churchill promised, he also knew early on that victory would have to be paid for in manpower and in wealth. He accepted lend lease because in the world of 'realpolitik' he would have done something similar. How much was the UK's war debt to Canada and other countries? (Last payment to Canada 2006) We often forget these debts.
Second World War resulted in Great Britain being bankrupt and as the Great War and the leading creditor was the US. Actually not just the Second World War. In the Great War, the USA would not give any credit to the Allies other than to Great Britain. Consequently all American sales of arms to France, Italy and Russia were channelled through and paid for by Britain. Whilst the French paid up, Italy did not and of courses all debts racked up by Russia were paid by Britain who expended vastly more of her wealth than any other antagonist. I was telling a French friend who was asking me about the "Special Relationship" that I was grateful for America for saving Britain in WW2 and for providing a nuclear umbrella against the Soviets - Yes he said but look how much they charged you.
Although this is from 2006 it is worth having a read and put the WW2 debt to the US in perspective. The UK is about to pay off the last of its World War II loans from the US. But it hasn't always been so fastidious. On 31 December, the UK will make a payment of about $83m (£45.5m) to the US and so discharge the last of its loans from World War II from its transatlantic ally. It is hard from a modern viewpoint to appreciate the astronomical costs and economic damage caused by this conflict. In 1945, Britain badly needed money to pay for reconstruction and also to import food for a nation worn down after years of rationing. "In a nutshell, everything we got from America in World War II was free," says economic historian Professor Mark Harrison, of Warwick University. "The loan was really to help Britain through the consequences of post-war adjustment, rather than the war itself. This position was different from World War I, where money was lent for the war effort itself." Britain needed to rebuild Britain had spent a great deal of money at the beginning of the war, under the US cash-and-carry scheme, which saw straight payments for materiel. There was also trading of territory for equipment on terms that have attracted much criticism in the years since. By 1941, Britain was in a parlous financial state and Lend-Lease was eventually introduced. The post-war loan was part-driven by the Americans' termination of the scheme. Under the programme, the US had effectively donated equipment for the war effort, but anything left over in Britain at the end of hostilities and still needed would have to be paid for. But the price would please a bargain hunter - the US only wanted one-tenth of the production cost of the equipment and would lend the money to pay for it. As a result, the UK took a loan for $586m (about £145m at 1945 exchange rates), and a further $3,750m line of credit (about £930m at 1945 exchange rates). The loan was to be paid off in 50 annual repayments starting in 1950, although there were six years when payment was deferred because of economic or political crises. Generous terms It's easy to cough and splutter at the thought of our closest ally suddenly demanding payment for equipment rather than sparing a billion or two as a gift. But the terms of the loan were extremely generous, with a fixed interest rate of 2% making it considerably less terrifying than a typical mortgage. Still there were British officials, like economist JM Keynes, who detected a note of churlishness in the general demeanour of the Americans after the war. Nobody pays off their student loan early, unless they are a nutter Dr Tim Leunig His biographer, Lord Skidelsky, says: "Keynes wanted either a gift to cover Britain's post-war balance of payments, or an interest-free loan. The most important condition was sterling being made convertible [to dollars]. Everyone simply changed their pounds for dollars. [Loans were] eaten up by a flight from sterling. They then had to suspend convertibility. The terms were impossible to fulfil." Anne Moffat, the MP for East Lothian, asked the parliamentary question that revealed the end of the WWII loan after being pressed by an interested constituent. She is a little surprised that we are still paying the Americans off all these years later. "It is certainly bad that no-one seems to have known about it. It seems to be a dark, well-kept secret." Historic debts Yet for Dr Tim Leunig, lecturer in economic history at the LSE, it's no surprise that the UK chose to keep this low-interest loan going rather than pay it off early. "Nobody pays off their student loan early, unless they are a nutter. Even if you've got the money to pay it off early, you should just put it in a bank and pocket the interest." And if it seems strange to the non-economist that WWII debts are still knocking around after 60 years, there are debts that predate the Napoleonic wars. Dr Leunig says the government is still paying out on these "consol" bonds, because it is better value for taxpayers to keep paying the 2.5% interest than to buy back the bonds. In a 1945 state department survey on the US public's attitudes to its wartime allies, Britain was one of the least trusted countries Dr Patricia Clavin And while the UK dutifully pays off its World War II debts, those from World War I remain resolutely unpaid. And are by no means trifling. In 1934, Britain owed the US $4.4bn of World War I debt (about £866m at 1934 exchange rates). Adjusted by the Retail Price Index, a typical measure of inflation, £866m would equate to £40bn now, and if adjusted by the growth of GDP, to about £225bn. "We just sort of gave up around 1932 when the interwar economy was in turmoil, currencies were collapsing," says Prof Harrison. Nor were we alone. In 1931, US President Herbert Hoover announced a one-year moratorium on war loan repayments from all nations so the international community could properly discuss what it was going to do. British resentment Many Britons felt that the US loans should be considered as part of its contribution to the World War I effort. "The Americans lent Britain a lot. Britain resented making payments," says historian Dr Patricia Clavin, of Oxford University. And although Britain was unable to pay its debts, it was also owed the whacking sum of £2.3bn. OUTSTANDING WWI LOANS Britain owed to US in 1934: £866m Adjusted by RPI to 2006: £40bn Other nations owed Britain: £2.3bn Adjusted by RPI to 2006: £104bn These loans remain in limbo. The UK Government's position is this: "Neither the debt owed to the United States by the UK nor the larger debts owed by other countries to the UK have been serviced since 1934, nor have they been written off." So in a time when debt relief for Third World nations is recurrently in the news, the UK still has a slew of unresolved loans from a war that finished 88 years ago. HM Treasury's researchers descended into its archives and were unable to even establish which nations owe money. The bulk of the sum would probably have gone to allies such as nations of the Empire fighting alongside Britain, says Dr Clavin. Nor is HM Treasury able to say why the UK never repaid its WWI debts - even though, at the time, many Americans took a dim view of repayments being suspended, for they had bought bonds which stood little chance of showing a return on their investment. The Wall Street Crash helped plunge economies into chaos Thus despite fighting on the same side in WWII, an air of financial distrust remained after hostilities ended. "In a 1945 state department survey on the US public's attitudes to its wartime allies, Britain was one of the least trusted countries," says Dr Clavin. During the crisis years of the 1930s, only one nation continued to pay in full - Finland. Perhaps a conscious effort to foster a good reputation with an increasingly influential power, Finland's actions generated thousands of positive stories in the American media at the time. Nor has it been forgotten; the Finns celebrated this achievement in an exhibition last year. But for the UK, a reputation for reliability has taken longer to restore.
Great post. I knew about the WW2 debt being paid off but not about the WW1 situation. Thanks for posting that.
Here is the bill HR 1776 -Lend Lease. HR 1776 Sound iffy at start. Wendell Willkie addresses senators in Washington DC and urges the passing of the Lend-Lease bill to help Britain.
Some might dispute that but Goering won the day with his policy of "guns before butter..butter makes you fat". It is obvious that Goering didn't practice what he preached!
The American Virgin Islands used to belong to the UK but were traded with America to service that debt from WW1, so who ever says we never paid our way is wrong. WW2 we have been paying back those loans for years and if I remember rightly it was about 2005 when we paid of the last of it. Again the loans have been paid back, also after the war America demanded full payment for all out standing loans, and eventually it went on the never never on the understanding that we would break up the Empire.
The American Virgin Islands used to belong to the UK but were traded with America to service that debt from WW1, so who ever says we never paid our way is wrong. WW2 we have been paying back those loans for years and if I remember rightly it was about 2005 when we paid of the last of it. Again the loans have been paid back, also after the war America demanded full payment for all out standing loans, and eventually it went on the never never on the understanding that we would break up the Empire. Do you have something to support the second paragraph as the first statement is incorrect. Virgin Islands Main article: United States Virgin Islands In 1917, the United States purchased the former Danish colony of St. Croix, St. John and St. Thomas, which is now the U.S. Virgin Islands. The United States purchased these islands because they feared that the islands might be seized as a submarine base during World War I. After a few months of negotiations, a sales price of $25 million (equivalent to $428 million in present day terms) was agreed. A referendum held in late 1916 confirmed the decision to sell by a wide margin. The deal was thus ratified and finalized on January 17, 1917, when the United States and Denmark exchanged their respective treaty ratifications. The U.S. took possession of the islands on March 31, 1917. The territory was renamed the U.S. Virgin Islands.[17] U.S. citizenship was granted to the inhabitants of the islands in 1927.
Sorry I did not keep the news papers cutting of the day, but it was widely reported in our national newspapers that this debt had now been paid off and it was under the Labour Government. I have have dug through the internet and found this BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | What's a little debt between friends?
Sorry I did not keep the news papers cutting of the day, but it was widely reported in our national newspapers that this debt had now been paid off and it was under the Labour Government. I have have dug through the internet and found this BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | What's a little debt between friends? Hi Tab, That is the press release I placed in post #73. The press release states that Britain's WW1 debt to the US has not been paid and I guess will never be. WW1 was not "Lend and Lease" as was WW2. If you read between the lines, Britain was charged with all the debt however they were supplying arms etc to the other fledgling Commonwealth countries who were supporting them with manpower. (Someone may be able to support if this is true or not) With respect to the "Empire" it is well documented that Roosevelt and the US government fought Churchill at every turn when his suggestions for Military actions in certain areas were seen as merely ensuring the continuity of the Empire post war. The US rightly or wrongly wanted to free up all markets post war and break down the Empire's not only of Britain but of other European countries as well. Germany and Japan were defeated and lost their holdings in the Pacific and other areas, The Netherlands and Portugal followed post war. Their determination continued against Britain and France in the middle East with the Suez Crisis etc.
