Market Garden

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Dpalme01, Sep 28, 2004.

  1. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Gotthard –

    You really do go for the throat don’t you –

    1) Dunkirk – 2 Crete – 3 Singapore –

    I stand accused of panning all Americans – not so - as I only pan the incompetence of the leaders of the longsuffering GI’s – if you will note from my postings. I have always had a great respect for the GI – but do tend to pan incompetence from where ever…..

    1) - Dunkirk much British incompetence in ignoring the lessons oftheir own experts in Fuller – Liddell Hart – Swinton and many others on the need for a blitzkrieg type of modern warfare…Guaderin – Mansten and Rommel were quicker off the mark.

    2) Crete – a moment of incompetence of Gen. Freyberg in moving a vital Brigade group away from the Airfield thus giving Student’s paratroops the room the land in force and turn the battle – it should however be noted that Student never again used his paras anywhere as “they wuz whupped”

    3) Singapore – and inexplicable failure to fight a superior enemy was without parallel in the annals of the British army – when one thinks of the debacles in the past of the famous charge at Balaclava and elsewhere or even the efforts of the battalion of Glosters in Korea when they took on a vast Chinese mob – and beat them.

    These three hardly offset the blunders of Fredendall - Patton – Clark – the one at Anzio before Truscott – Collins and a few more !

    4th Wilts - lets see now 4th Wilts – 43rd Div – V111 corps – Thomas, Div commander – Harding – O’Conner - Barker all very good corps commanders did very well at Caen – Odon – Epsom – Jupiter – Hill 112 – Bluecoats not to forget Ahrnem – so never did serve in 8th Army – or US 5th army in italy under the well decorated US Gen Mark Clark ? – well then - a word of advice – never mention that man’s name to a member of the Xth corps at Salerno – Garigliano – Minturno or Anzio – or to the members of X111 th Corps after Rome to the end of the Italian campaign – OR – if you do – then move your head out of the way real fast !

  2. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    These three hardly offset the blunders of .... Collins and a few more !

    I've generally avoid posting in Market Garden threads because of the usual acrimony that accompanies them. This thread has proven to be no different.

    I must ask, Mr. Canning, are you referring to Lawton Collins, Commander of the 25th Infantry Division and later VII Corps in Europe? If so, what operations conducted under his command makes him the object of such scorn by you?
    von Poop likes this.
  3. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    +I do refer to the Divisional commander at the Bulge when Monty took over the northen sector and asked Collins to retire and build a four divison force to be ready to counter attack when Monty gave the order - he disobeyed orders - re entered the battle and was mauled - no reserves ready for the counter attack -

    Probably a bit harsh in my condemnation but when we were given orders - we had to obey - do the task - then complain - the US Army appeared to have a different take on orders and - again appeared - to treat them as subjects for discussion !

    So from the British point of view - Collins was dis-obedient - in the same manner as was Clark at Anzio - don't know what you would call it !

    COMMANDO Senior Member

    it should however be noted that Student never again used his paras anywhere as “they wuz whupped”

    Large airborne operations (larger than regimental size) by the Germans did not take place after Crete because the Fallschirmjäger received severe losses in men. Realize they raised several other Fallschirmjäger Divisions after Crete. The reason was that Hitler no longer was convinced that a large scale airborne operation could be succesfull as the enemy had to be expected to be not to strong in the landing area(and it had costed him already twice a lot of his transportacraft potential).
  5. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    dear tom,please accept an apology.imo gen clark is not at the top of my list of good generals,but he also demanded the dropping of 82nd a/b div inside the perimiter of salerno,insead of the h.q dropping tthat div on the eternal city,op giant-two.yours,lee.
  6. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    dear tom,i know the 43rd wessex never fought in italy.i do have a close friend who fought with the 4th wilts,through the n/w europe campaign.if my remarks on gen clark got you narky,i apolagise completely.yours,lee.
  7. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    o.k,does anyone know of any other independent units,attached to xxx corps during op m.g.lee.
  8. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    4th Wilts -
    I don't get narky - or anything else -just like the facts - that's all - now IF you look at the situation at Salerno at that time of the battle - Clark was all set to evacuate the beach - Alexander flew in to Salerno beaches and advised him to strengthen his force by bringing in the paras....which he did....!

    The same facts with the German para - Hitler didn't like his losses at Crete - therefore he would not allow large forces to be used but rather 'penny packets' like Scorzeny's rescue of Mussolini - I don't recall any other time they were used - maybe I haven't read enough - perhaps we could be enlightened ?
  9. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    i believe ike was going to drop the 82nd div on rome,which luckily he did not do op-giant-2,thank god.yours,lee.
  10. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Fallschirmjager -
    We appear to be at odds with sizes of units - you say that NO regimental unit of para was formed - ? A regiment in the British army has many Battalions - a regiment in the US army - at that time was similar to a British Brigade of three battalions - A British divison was made of three Brigades - three divisions made up a corps - three corps' = an Army
    So what constituted a "regiment" in the German army ?
  11. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    umm.on 3 consecutive nights,a regimental combat team from the 82nd a/b div was landed to bolster the salerno defences....fallchimjager,you have your wires crossed tom....crete as on about clarke,not crete.lee
  12. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Can we please get this thread back to some semblance of a connection with the actual events of Operation Market Garden, and perceptions thereof.
    An amount of digression is fine, but this one is becoming nothing but.

    Use of the search function will reveal appropriate places for most all of these other issues, if there isn't a place then anybody is entitled to start a new thread.


    COMMANDO Senior Member

    you say that NO regimental unit of para was formed - ?

    No, that is not what I did wrote....
    von Poop likes this.

    COMMANDO Senior Member

    Can we please get this thread back to some semblance of a connection with the actual events of Operation Market Garden

    OK, What was the Question ?
  15. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Thanks FJ.
    Well, it started 4 years ago as just a general query on peoples thoughts about the op. Since creaking back open recently it's devolved into a rather thin, acidic, and confusing read.

    Might just be best to close the thing and ask that people's Market Garden related threads be more specifically directed, hopefully avoiding the bickering & 'nya nya' that always seems to break out on this fascinating subject around here, if the discussion's not based on a specific question.
    People seem so on edge about the subject that they assume certain positions have been taken even when nothing of the kind has been said. or jump all over a minor remark or aside.

    I'll leave it open for the mo. How about just some civilised chat about the op? Without the puffed up feathers, preconceptions, and bizarre 'what if' interjections?

  16. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    OK Market Garden was the natural continuation of a battle that started on D day. many folk ask should we have gone after the enemy in market Garden?
    Why? Did we have any alternative? You fight the enemy where ever you find him specially when the tide is in your favour.

    Members here ask should we have gone into MG... My answer to that is... What Else do you do? Stop, sit back, and think OK! we have done a lot now lets sit back?

    If that is the case its a good job you were not in charge....IN war you fight and kill or or get killed. There is never a case for a defensive frame of mind.. the only defense is attack.

    The idea it seems to me these days is to wait until you are attacked before replying.
    Thank heavens the outlook was ATTACK .....Go Get them....

    Market Garden was no more than a continuation of the battle that started on D Day....You do not stop and sit on your fat backside.......In war you win some you lose some, the art of the game is to win the most!
    The same applies today......Don't wait to be attacked get in first.
    von Poop likes this.

    COMMANDO Senior Member

    To undertake an operation as MG was not a bad idea, I think that can never have been the problem. What is the problem is how they worked it out and what they did make of the plan...

    I self think that the plan as being made was launched on a to early basis (to much water obstacles) and in the wrong direction...

    Monty needed a harbor (Antwerpen) and had to make sure that harbour could be used.

    So let we say if MG was not carried out we had Allied troops along the Dutch frontier. main effort would have been to free the port of Antwerp first by pushing on hard...
    You can capture a bridge for tactical benefit, but you can also destroy them (like those on the Dives en Seine).

    So if I would have be in command... :) :) I would have blow the bridges along the line Dordrecht - Utrecht - Arnhem (!) ... preventing the Germans to move fresch forces south to attack Antwerp, but also to prevent them to escape ! By doing so you get a long North flank that is protected by the Betuwe Island which is open and not useful for armoured operation.

    Then you attack North on the lines :-

    1 Antwerpen - Moerdijk and
    2 Antwerpen/Turnhout - Hertogenbosch and
    3 Neerpelt toward Eindhoven

    And consolidate your postion while your left flank makes free the harbour of Antwerpen.

    Then, you can leave a protective force along the Northern shoulder and you can focus on Germany...

    From that point you just carried out the operations as they did happen.... For crossing the River Maas you might can use one or two Airborne Divisions (now not used during MG), but now the relieving forces are only 40 kilometers away and not 100 as with Arnhem.

    Main point is that Arnhem was to far away behind enemy lines when the operation started. I can understand 101's and 82nd operation in that direction at that point but would not have dropped 1 st Airborne at Arnhem but had held them behind as reserve and then turning east toward Wessel right away. So you are by the end of Oktober/November over the Rhine at Wessel instead of of in 1945... The war could have been won in 1944...

    Attached Files:

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  18. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Thanks chaps.

  19. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    Adam, I will accede to your request to get this thread out of the ditches and save my disagreement over Collins getting "mauled" in Dec 1944 for later.
  20. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    fallsh,iff you dropped the airborne corps on wesel,after consiliation.a/the germans would have blown the rhine bridges.b/the troop carrier command would have to fly further,probably having to make more drops than they did during op m.g.imo the whole enterprise was a damn close run thing....i did have a map somewhere showing allied units,after a succesfull operation,but alas i cant find it.lee.

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