CALM Discussion of the Eastern Front.

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by von Poop, Apr 17, 2006.

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Page 5 of 6
  1. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Location Of German Divisions In June Of Each Year

    Country....1941....1942....1943....1944

    USSR.........34.......171.....179......157

    (France,
    Belgium&
    Holland).....38.........27......42........56

    (Norway&
    Finland).....13.........16......16........16

    Balkans .....7............8......17.........20

    Italy...........0...........0.......0..........22

    Denmark......1...........1.......2..........3

    North Africa..2...........3.......0..........0
     
    spidge, Nov 1, 2006
    #81
  2. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    History knows no greater display of courage than that shown by the people of the Soviet Union. - Henry L. Stimson, Secretary of War
     
    spidge, Nov 1, 2006
    #82
  3. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    We and our allies owe and acknowledge an ever-lasting debt of gratitude to the armies and people of the Soviet Union. - Frank Knox, secretary of the Navy
     
    spidge, Nov 1, 2006
    #83
  4. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    On the European Front the most important development of the past year has been the crushing offensive of the Great Armies of Russia... - President Franklin D. Roosevelt (April 29, 1942)
     
    spidge, Nov 1, 2006
    #84
  5. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Someone pose a question and lets talk about it
    Ok then, ;)
    Do we reckon there were any circumstances or situations that if played out differently would have allowed the German aims in the East to succeed? I know it's generally held now that the Invasion was a straightforward impossibility but many bright lads on the German staff must have thought otherwise. Where exactly did it all go wrong for 'em?

    (Glad to see the General Ostfront thread return, been bugging me that this one remained closed long after the shouting had ended :))
    Cheers,
    Adam
     
    von Poop, Nov 1, 2006
    #85
  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    The point about treating the eastern peoples well and so keeping them on-side misses the point of the invasion.
    Wasn't Lebensraum the reason for the invasion?
    The Nazis wanted the land for themselves.
     
    Owen, Nov 1, 2006
    #86
  7. Millsy

    Millsy Member

    Did they need the agricultural land immediately? And wasn't the real goal the Caucasian oil fields? They would have ensured better productivity of the arable land by maintaining the peasant farmers. Well at least to begin with anyway. I'm pretty sure there wasn't thousands of colonists all waiting in line on the German/Polish/Romanian border ready to take over the vacated farm and steppe land!

    Hasn't the importance of Lebensraum as a reason for invasion in part grown due to post war analysis, in such a manner that it has given it more weight than was really the case in 1941? But I could be wrong....

    Millsy
     
    Millsy, Nov 1, 2006
    #87
  8. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    My own view is that the Third Reich wanted to Destroy the Soviet union. It didnt matter what part of it they were after, the point was that they wanted to rip its very fabric apart and to enslave its peoples. I dont disagree that Oil was a factor in the equation, but given the fact that Army Group South was initially the weakest of the 3 Army Groups I'm not sure that Hitler was aiming for oil as a PRELIMINARY objective. But Owens post rings true, the very fact that they wanted to destroy the Soviet Nation and ALL its subjects meant that from an Idealogical point of view they Couldnt treat the subjected peoples well. It would definitely have tipped the balance of the war because the Ukrainians and Belorussians would have flocked to Hitler's Banner and the Wehrmacht need never have worried about manpower resources ever again. But the ideology got in the way. How do you allow untermensch to serve in the Wehrmacht????
     
    Gerard, Nov 1, 2006
    #88
  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I'll go along with that. Though logic and hindsight dictate that the oil-fields could have been absolutely crucial the concept of an attack on Russia wasn't formed by logical thinking. Ideology was surely at the forefront & there was a genuine belief that Lebensraum was not only a necessity but also a right of one 'superior' race over another 'lesser' one. There were plenty of plans drawn up for establishing settlements and farmsteads for the 'Germanic' peoples from across Europe to live in, I always pictured a kind of Australian situation with huge farms covering thousands of acres providing cattle and grain for the Greater Germany, I suspect Adolf and Heinrich did too.
    Were they really so blinded by ideology as to disregard military possibility though? I suppose a large dose of arrogance came into it, Napoleon may have failed but a fair sized cadre of the OKW must have seen themselves as superior to him in every way after sweeping through the rest of europe but it still seems surprising that they don't even seem to have seen the possibility of losing, or the dangers inherent in attacking such a huge area.
     
    von Poop, Nov 1, 2006
    #89
  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Just looking into Ukrainians in WW2 and found this site.
    http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/

    A poignant quote from the author.
    Every Ukrainian family suffered losses in the war and many had victims of both Hitler and Stalin. Perhaps it is significant that out of three of my relatives who were victims of the war, two were shot by Stalin's USSR and one was shot by Hitler's Gestapo

    Dedication
    This article is dedicated to the memory of three relatives in Ukraine I never saw. Ivan Andreyevich Hryhorovich and Vasyl Fedorovich Fedoruk of Orelets, Sniatyn raion of Ivano Frankivsk, were arrested November 1940, tried by the Military Tribunal of the 12 th Army in Kiev, on March 27, 1941 and executed by the Soviet government. They were rehabilitated March 14, 1993 (Spravka 736-93). The third victim, (Vasyl?) Andreyevich Hryhorovich, whose first name is not definitely known to me, was shot by the German Gestapo during the German occupation of Ukraine.
    Andrew Gregorovich


    Thought provoking chapter here.http://www.infoukes.com/history/ww2/page-19.html
    Did Hitler or Stalin Kill More Ukrainians in World War II?

    How grim for those Nations caught between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia?
     
    Owen, Nov 1, 2006
    #90
  11. Millsy

    Millsy Member

    Off on a tangent here. Another book i read a few years back gives a very factual and interesting slant on the Soviet 'peoples' experience during the war.

    Life and Fate by Vasily Grossman. Brilliant. Anyone with an interest in the Eastern Front should seek this book out.

    Millsy
     
    Millsy, Nov 1, 2006
    #91
  12. BulgarianSoldier

    BulgarianSoldier Senior Member

    There was a movie called Osvobozhdenie.It was really good and really realistic.Its a serial movie i dont remamber how much series if there are russians in the forum they may tell more :)
     
    BulgarianSoldier, Nov 1, 2006
    #92
  13. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    The point about treating the eastern peoples well and so keeping them on-side misses the point of the invasion.
    Wasn't Lebensraum the reason for the invasion?
    The Nazis wanted the land for themselves.

    The simplistic wording was the crux of the statement. Their "ideology" despised these people so entirely, they could not come to terms with utilising their numbers to achieve their goal.

    The initial arrogance of the Germans was understandable, yet we can only guess at what may have been had they taken their initial conquests into the fold.
     
    spidge, Nov 1, 2006
    #93
  14. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Hi everyone, I haven't posted anything in this forum since April. I went away for a while due to the fact that it was impossible to hold a conversation here without being harassed by somebody who seemed to take pleasure in making other peoples lives hell, and the moderator body wasn't being any help then. I was advised in another forum that the situation had come back to acceptable levels so here I am, treading carefully.

    Can we talk now?
     
    Za Rodinu, Nov 13, 2006
    #94
  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Welcome back. Stick around. The mods have changed slightly and the troll has gone.
     
    Owen, Nov 13, 2006
    #95
  16. Cpl Rootes

    Cpl Rootes Senior Member

    welcome home
     
    Cpl Rootes, Nov 13, 2006
    #96
  17. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Welcome back Za Rodinu.

    The reins have been tightened!
     
    spidge, Nov 13, 2006
    #97
  18. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Hi everyone, I haven't posted anything in this forum since April. I went away for a while due to the fact that it was impossible to hold a conversation here without being harassed by somebody who seemed to take pleasure in making other peoples lives hell, and the moderator body wasn't being any help then. I was advised in another forum that the situation had come back to acceptable levels so here I am, treading carefully.

    Can we talk now?
    Za,
    We can talk,
    A real pleasure to see you back over here.
    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
    von Poop, Nov 13, 2006
    #98
  19. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Thanks for the welcome, it certainly is a relief being able to talk without being constantly badgered!

    Now, where were we?
     
    Za Rodinu, Nov 14, 2006
    #99
  20. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    We were welcoming an old friend home!! good to see you my friend. Now let the Eastern Front Talk Commence!!!!
     
    Gerard, Nov 14, 2006
    #100
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