CALM Discussion of the Eastern Front.

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by von Poop, Apr 17, 2006.

  1. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Thought I'd start a nice shiny new thread for some REASONABLE discussion of the Eastern Front.

    Comments by a new member underline that we're not very good at doing this without resorting to shouting (I include myself in this) so lets see if we're all bright enough to do it.

    Politics will inevitably flare up (50 years of cold war will do that) but there is now 'the politics thread' where shouting can be tolerated, could the Mods request a shift there if any bother at all breaks out. :cop: There are some very 'black' topics that could be covered but surely we could cover them in a friendly manner? On this thread lets try and ignore post-war references and concentrate specifically on ww2/great patriotic war issues. It's 50 years of post-war mistrust that contributes to the fog over the eastern front, let's see if we can skirt it a little.

    Imagine Granny is reading!
    Imagine a 9 year old is asking for his school project!
    Imagine that we all want to learn just a little more about the Eastern Front!
    BE NICE!!

    Who's gonna start it off then? anyone got a burning eastern front question we can all have a jolly nice chat about?
    :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
     
  2. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    Sounds like a good idea, but I would like to point out, that if my Granny's reading...... there's something seriously psychic going on :mellow:
     
  3. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    We have to have a look at all the threads, so any wrong doing will be either deleted or edited
     
  4. ComradeRomain

    ComradeRomain Member

    someone can tell me the story of kursk?
     
  5. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Wow, that's a bit of a challenge, isn't it? That takes some telling :D

    I would suggest you do as I did and buy a couple of books on the subject, I recommend "The Battle of Kursk", D. Glatz + J.House, 280 pages + 120 pages on notes, appendixes and charts! Some 15 dollars in Abebooks or ebay.
     
  6. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    Wow, that's a bit of a challenge, isn't it? That takes some telling :D

    I agree, why not start with something a little bit less intense before hitting the BIG stuff? :mellow:
     
  7. Gage

    Gage The Battle of Barking Creek MOD

    What about the importance of the Volga?
     
  8. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    I know nadda about the Eastern Front, so teach me.
     
  9. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Well, that one is easier! The Volga is a very large river which in our context was of the prime importance as a waterway for barge traffic, and of prime importance too for power generation. It provides easy transportation to a large number of important cities along the way (list at bottom), some of whose names will be easily recognisable by us, except Volgograd which is goold old Stalingrad renamed by Khrushchev!

    As I said there was a large amount of barge traffic along it, and the cutting of this was one of the reasons for the Stalingrad operation, but as we know that one did not work too well. Major cities beside S. would be Astrakhan for the oil, Gorky (now Nizhny Novgorod again) famous for the GAZ (Gorkii Avtomobil Zhavod - Gorky Automobile Plant) trucks and a tank plant too, at least, Kazan and Stavropol (now Togliatti) were also industrial centres.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Cities_on_the_Volga
     
  10. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Cheers ZR, i think I'm going to enjoy this thread.
     
  11. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Wow, that's a bit of a challenge, isn't it? That takes some telling :D

    I would suggest you do as I did and buy a couple of books on the subject, I recommend "The Battle of Kursk", D. Glatz + J.House, 280 pages + 120 pages on notes, appendixes and charts! Some 15 dollars in Abebooks or ebay.

    There is also "The Battle for KursK" - the Soviet general Staff Study, David Glantz and Harold Orenstein. 3.95 from British Heart foundation Charity shop in Surgeons hall Edinburgh!
     
  12. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    Politics will inevitably flare up (50 years of cold war will do that) but there is now 'the politics thread' where shouting can be tolerated, could the M
    Personally, I never thought the objections to Russia in WWII had anything to do with the Cold War but I always thought their WWII behavior was sufficient to fully merit their reputation. I always thought bringing up the Cold War was a scheme by the Soviet-advocates to muddy the water and avoid answering the manifold objections raised on Russia's dubious WWII actions (military style, lack of humanity, etc) in hopes of making it look like an unfounded bias. You have to admit, the pro-Russian guys have a tough "row to hoe" in defending Russia's WWII activity, politically, militarily, socially, etc. Seems superflous to go beyond that other than to illustrate their consistency. :)
     
  13. ComradeRomain

    ComradeRomain Member

    That seems totally plausible jimbo. Lets not also forget that soviet Russia always viewed the democratic west an enemy just as much as Nazi Germany before the war. The USSR still believed in western hostility towards her.
     
  14. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Personally, I never thought the objections to Russia in WWII had anything to do with the Cold War but I always thought their WWII behavior was sufficient to fully merit their reputation. I always thought bringing up the Cold War was a scheme by the Soviet-advocates to muddy the water and avoid answering the manifold objections raised on Russia's dubious WWII actions (military style, lack of humanity, etc) in hopes of making it look like an unfounded bias. You have to admit, the pro-Russian guys have a tough "row to hoe" in defending Russia's WWII activity, politically, militarily, socially, etc. Seems superflous to go beyond that other than to illustrate their consistency. :)

    Simple. I don't even try to defend or justify Soviet morality, inhumanity, etc. I am already entirely aware of that, but I keep it separate from study of military history. I don't necessarily have to like or condone those less agreable facets, so it's no use trying to hit me with that particular type of stone as that will only generate hot air and will sidetrack what would be an interesting topic until a moderator loses patience and locks the thread. If I want to discuss or defend Soviet politics (unlikely), I'll go to the appropriate political section of the forum, here that is a waste of time.

    Can I provide an analogy? If I want to discuss the II SS-Panzerkorps at Kursk I certainly can not be expected to go at great lengths about death camps or Gestapo torture. That's not related, that's for another thread, this discussion is purely military.

    If we don't have to damn the nazis whenever we discuss Wehrmacht or Waffen-SS military actions in this forum we do we need to jump up foam in the mouth whenever someone speaks about the Red Army? What are we, pavlovian lab test dogs?

    Is that ok?
     
  15. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    :lol: sounded good and calm to me.
    Pavlovian response not required just 'cos someone mentioned the Red Army.
     
  16. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Excellent thread Von Poop and yes lets discuss this in a calm fashion!!!!! There is always the belief for example that the Russian Campaign simply consisted of Barbarossa, Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Bagration and the End when loads took place in between!
     
  17. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    :lol: sounded good and calm to me.
    Pavlovian response not required just 'cos someone mentioned the Red Army.
    I am now thinking about raspberry pavolvas... I am ready for my next lesson on the Eastern Front. ZR gave me a nice concise explanation of the main objectives, but what happened? Why did Hitler decide to invade? I've seen several arguments for this, but i can't decide which was the most likely. Somebody please explain to me. Kitty
     
  18. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Next you are going to ask for the Shanghai phone directory, aren't you? ;) All right, which arguments did you say you saw, so I won't have to repeat myself!
     
  19. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Sorry ZR, i can't recall them in detail. Some seemed to say Hitler invaded because he viewed Russians as inferior, some for land, others for the hell of it. Some that Russia instigated it... I'd like your opinion as you seem to be very concise and historically accurate with your details.
    As to the Shanghai phone book, I'd prefer the Hong Kong one.;)
     
  20. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    I suppose the best thing would be to read some bibliography on the subject. What comes to mind are Ian Kershaw's Hitler: Nemesis and Kenneth Macksey's Why Germans Lose at War, plus several other East Front histories.

    In fact this is a very complicated story, as there was not a single reason, rather a complex of reasons, where sidelines sometimes become mainlines, and thoughts snowball into decisions, whereas previous decisions are discarded.

    Germany was at war with Britain, but it was supposed that GB was kept afloat with the hope the Soviet Union would come to its rescue. It was feared that as Germany would be embroiled with a more prolonged invasion and battle with Britain (the Battle of Britain proper had already failed) and as Seelöwe was not possible within the near timeframe, in order to defeat GB and wrap up the war, Seelöwe was then indefinitely postponed (goods traffic was already being affected by the immobilization of som many barges in the channel ports), and attention was turned to eliminating Britain’s only prop - as Hitler saw it - and clearing the rear from an enemy. So Germany turned to that quick and easy matter that defeating the SU was supposed to be, as a prelude to a serious invasion of the British Isles.

    Of course there is also that other reason often given, the Lebensraum (vital space) question, to be fulfilled by conquering land in the East, but I don't think this was taken seriously by anyone.
     

Share This Page