CALM Discussion of the Eastern Front.

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by von Poop, Apr 17, 2006.

  1. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    I have read alot on these threads people quote books say read this or that...that's fine but what about what you as a poster got out of reading this book or that ? Why you liked or didn't like it? What you agree or disagree about the authors point? Perhaps a review? As I look at this thread I see people treading on rice paper but not really discussing Orders of Battle(why or what composition was important) The Leaders of those actions from small unit to Corp/Korp.
    The technological aspects of Axis/Allied weapons. Which was better, worse? Tactic, stategy, roles of organization, logistics,combat effectiveness of said unit types.

    You are right, but you have to understand that in my case I can only make posts between two tasks at work or after dinner when I am already dog-tired (today I got up at 3am). Normally I tend to address only the immediate question at hand, so I have to apologise for some lack of depth on those matters you would like to see.

    Quite frankly I simply don't have the time or the energy that Gotthard Heinrici and Jimbotosome seem to have in dollops :lol:
     
  2. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    I could get rid of a coyote in a corn field by setting it on fire but it does not speak well of my hunting skills.

    That may not be quite elegant, but the coyote does get toasted in the end and that's what mattered, wasn't it?
     
  3. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    That may not be quite elegant, but the coyote does get toasted in the end and that's what mattered, wasn't it?
    That all depends. If we are talking about dead coyotes then you are right. But if we are talking about the lack of Jimbo's hunting prowess, then you have to conclude that I sucked at it. That's all I was trying to communicate in the discussion of the Russian army.

    To say it the other way would be like saying the "ends justify the lack of means". As I said, that's non-sequitur to me.
     
  4. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    You are right about the propaganda routine with Mother Russia. I am aware of that. But the Russian people were not impressed. They were happy that the Germans were there. They had no appreciation for their government.

    I read a book called Tigers in the Mud where a tanker named Otto Carius tried to characterize the US as poor soldiers because they would not come out of their foxholes to take on his JagdTiger (128mm) which he was given late in the war when reassigned to the western front. The thought the Soviets were braver because they would come out and face his Tiger and die bravely where the US soldiers would dive into a foxhole and call in air support or artillery. He believed that was cowardly. Ironic how he talks about the American's hiding from his big cannot while he himself was hiding in the woods during the day because of "guess what"...Jabos...

    In one anecdote he talks about a Sherman going behind a house so he takes a shot at where he thinks the Sherman is behind the house and it goes through the house and knocks out the Sherman.

    In another he talks about seeing a column of Shermans coming up a road while his group lies in wait. He orders a shot by one of his "young" tank crew, the others were standing outside their big tanks. The tank round falls short as its range was only 3 kilometers and they were 4 kilometers away. A few seconds later a single artillery round falls 80 meters behind him. A few seconds later one lands 50 meters in front of them. He screams at his young and naive crew to get back into their tanks but they were confused as to why he was freaking out. As you have probably guessed that was two ranging shots of the US artillery. Ten seconds later they "fire for effect" barrages came in and took out one tank and several of the men trying to get back into the others for protection. They fled with only losing a couple of heavy JagdTigers. You had to be careful what you shot at. The Americans didn't believe in running men at heavy armor. The didn't believe in running Shermans at heavy armor. They believe in using tactics properly. This didn't make them a bad soldier as Carius implied. It made them smart and alive. Why schedule a massacre of your men to impress an arrogant tanker? Why not simply tear him a new one in the rock-paper-scissors war that was WWII.

    So, while the Germans including my example praised the Soviets for their bravery they ignored their stupidity. Bravery is doing something of your own volition, not because you have a better chance of surviving if you run at the enemy than go back to your group.

    I am just impressed by fighting smart. Brute force is not a good strategy to a tactical enemy. It means the meaningless death of scads of your men. That's all I was ever saying. It's just not impressive warfare unless you enjoy counting your own dead.

    I thought Patton summed up the western philosphy in "The objective of war is not to die for your country but to make the other poor bastard die for his". In that the Allies were experts comparatively and the Soviets were poor at doing that. Surely you agree with that?
     
  5. Exxley

    Exxley Senior Member

    As Exxley has pointed out the amount of “Elite” SS divisions were few, probably confined to the Following:
    SS Leibstandarte
    SS Das Reich
    SS Nordland
    SS Hitler Jugend
    SS Frundsberg
    SS Hohenstaufen
    SS Nord
    SS wiking
    Now that is 8 out of 38 known SS formations which is about 21% of its total strength. Not very high is it? Now those 8 were particularly good and yes I would class them as elite. But there is no way I would say that just because a soldier is SS that it makes them elite.

    Anyway I have refuted enough.

    The Totenkopf could be added as well to that list imho Gott.
     
  6. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    You are right, but you have to understand that in my case I can only make posts between two tasks at work or after dinner when I am already dog-tired (today I got up at 3am). Normally I tend to address only the immediate question at hand, so I have to apologise for some lack of depth on those matters you would like to see.

    Quite frankly I simply don't have the time or the energy that Gotthard Heinrici and Jimbotosome seem to have in dollops :lol:

    Well we're in the same boat...It's 1:35AM and just finished
    a bottle feeding for the little one and now it's off to sleep...Well I have to take Chewbacca(Her real name is Berry, my dog) out first.


    Jim, I'm gonna need glasses with those mega posts.
     
  7. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    As I look at this thread I see people treading on rice paper but not really discussing Orders of Battle(why or what composition was important) The Leaders of those actions from small unit to Corp/Korp.
    The technological aspects of Axis/Allied weapons. Which was better, worse? Tactic, stategy, roles of organization, logistics,combat effectiveness of said unit types.

    Adding to what I said before, I like to keep discussion subjects arranged in separate threads or else if one keeps it general the poor thread goes in all directions to noone's benefit. Neat and tidy :)

    As for "Which was better, worse?" this is for me a most sterile discussion as normally this is a matter of comparing appels to avocados, and as people are fans of different teams things tend to get sour at some point, which is something I hate to see.
     
  8. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Adding to what I said before, I like to keep discussion subjects arranged in separate threads or else if one keeps it general the poor thread goes in all directions to noone's benefit. Neat and tidy :)

    As for "Which was better, worse?" this is for me a most sterile discussion as normally this is a matter of comparing appels to avocados, and as people are fans of different teams things tend to get sour at some point, which is something I hate to see.

    ZR, are you trying to bring rationality, common sense and a sense of persepctive to these forums? I need a lie down.
    Jimbo, please, mate, shorten the posts. I am begging you! You have lots of useful stuff to say, but i just glaze over sometimes. Sorry
     
  9. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    You are right, but you have to understand that in my case I can only make posts between two tasks at work or after dinner when I am already dog-tired (today I got up at 3am). Normally I tend to address only the immediate question at hand, so I have to apologise for some lack of depth on those matters you would like to see.

    Quite frankly I simply don't have the time or the energy that Gotthard Heinrici and Jimbotosome seem to have in dollops :lol:
    Time??? My god! I'm the Father of Two Children, I hold down 2 jobs and I'm trying to study for a Degree in Management :lol: Believe me, if I had the time.................. :icon-mrgreenbandit:
     
  10. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Time??? My god! I'm the Father of Two Children, I hold down 2 jobs and I'm trying to study for a Degree in Management :lol:
    You're right! With 2 children + 2 jobs you do need a Degree in Management (2, perhaps?)
    :sign_rofl:
     
  11. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    You're right! With 2 children + 2 jobs you do need a Degree in Management (2, perhaps?)
    :sign_rofl:
    Ah but next week I shall have some time!! I'm off to Berlin to see the sights and tour some Battlefields, specifically the Halbe Pocket and the Seelow Heights!!!! Woohooo!! A week totally devoted to WWII. Watch out then!!! :wow:
     
  12. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    so that's why america lost in vietnam, and during ww2 was not able to destroy as much of nazi army as russians did ?
    i mean, isn't it so-called "good strategy" that turns the soldier into a coward ?


    Das ist aber lacherlich!
     
  13. jimbotosome

    jimbotosome Discharged

    so that's why america lost in vietnam, and during ww2 was not able to destroy as much of nazi army as russians did ?
    i mean, isn't it so-called "good strategy" that turns the soldier into a coward ?
    Not sure you could say the US lost in Vietnam. The US withdrew from Vietnam because the government would not decare a war and allow them to invade the North. Take for instance the Tet Offensive. It almost completely destroyed the NVA yet with our liberal news meisters in the US (the godless people we call the press) they spun it as a disaster and Nixon decided enough was enough. His statement was "how could so much be written about something the writers no so little about".

    It was because we are not free of socialist here. We just don't kill dissidents in the US like the Soviets do theirs (though you might be on to something here!).

    Not sure about your question. Don't know what you mean by turning a soldier into a coward. If you call jumping in a fox hole when a 128mm round is being fired at you is "coward" I could say you must agree with the Soviet WWII philosophy that their men are cannon fodder. In the west they call it "smart" in that you let the bigger guns beat the enemies gun, not smaller guns. No wonder the soviets got so many killed. The perplexing thing is no longer "how did they get so many killed...is it possible" it is "why did then not get even more killed..."

    I also don't get your point about the Soviets killing Nazis. The Russians faced much less density of troops and added nothing to destroying the most critical part of the German army, its industry infrastructure. They also sponged off the industrial capacity of the US. Am I missing something here?
     
  14. Exxley

    Exxley Senior Member

    I also don't get your point about the Soviets killing Nazis.

    3 millions and a half Axis soldiers somehow killed themselves in Eastern Europe during 1941-1945. Always good to have Jimbo for a good morning laugh.
     
  15. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Another thread hijacked. Please don't feed this troll!
     
  16. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    This was the CALM thread. I can understand how people have been wound up on the CALM thread. I'm now siding fully with the Za Rodinu approach. We've got to stop 'feeding the troll' or every single thread that refers even slightly to Russia (who regardless of politics still left tens of thousands of her young men in the ground the same as any other nation that fought in the war against Nazi Germany) gets grabbed and turned into a "'Nya nya' communism sucks boo hiss" type blurb where nothing is learnt and not one solitary new opinion or ray of light is shed upon the subject. I hope 'T34' isn't put off by this nonsense as we need a few new bods to actually contribute to LEARNING and DISCUSSION about the Eastern front rather than empty cold war rhetoric.
    :mad:
    I fed it last night and i'm not doing it again. Life's too short.
     
  17. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Several postings have been reported and deleted from this thread. However, it seems that it has turned into a all out offensive on Jimbo.

    Please return to the topic of this thread.
     
  18. Exxley

    Exxley Senior Member

    Several postings have been reported and deleted from this thread. However, it seems that it has turned into a all out offensive on Jimbo.

    Please return to the topic of this thread.

    Of course it never occurs to you that before the usual senseless ranting from our local uneducated loony, the thread was fine. Funny that the people who were trying to seriously discuss the topic are the ones asked to return to it.
     
  19. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    Of course it never occurs to you that before the usual senseless ranting from our local , the thread was fine. Funny that the people who were trying to seriously discuss the topic are the ones asked to return to it.

    It is not so much the postings made by Jimbo, but the reaction from the other postings.
     
  20. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    It is not so much the postings made by Jimbo, but the reaction from the other postings.

    I would like to make a point here..... No names no pack drill , all hypothetical and all that, but you are telling people that they aren't allowed to react. Does that mean that someone can post (and post lots!) that is a full 180° viewpoint to everyone else, post it with unashamed authority, and not expect a reaction? Even if it is quite often blatantly wrong and without supporting evidence?
    :mellow:
     

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