24th Lancers - LST Query

Discussion in 'The War at Sea' started by Ramiles, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    316442 WS/Sgt C F E Wilmot was 'A' Squadron, as was Roy Tomalin.

    Both were wounded and only one Wilmot in 24L.
     
  2. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I had a listen to this:

    Tomalin, Roy Ernest William (IWM interview) - A British trooper who served with 24th Lancers in GB and Normandy, 1942-1944:
    Tomalin Roy Ernest William IWM interview (20146)

    ..again. Where Roy says in his case he was "shifted" onto a Rhino. circa 17 mins 30 secs in. And details his crew around 21 mins 30 secs and his tank commander Lt.Barry. So I would guess that he was not only in a different tank (Roy's tank was named "'appy Hampstead") from Sgt.Wilmot he was initially perhaps even on a different LST (though not too sure)

    I had a look to see where the quote from Charles Wilmot came from in: Gold Juno Sword

    But couldn't very easily identify a source.

    Around pgs 69-70 etc. of "None Had Lances" - there is the description of 24th Lancers loading onto a Rhino and making for the shore however in their case they were hampered by the rough seas and at around 11pm were told that they were unable to land - because the beach was congested and the sea was on fire - so awash they turned back, having to search for an LST (not their own???) to reattach a tow.

    It is around here that "Sgt.Charlie Wilmot" is mentioned advising the crews to get into their tanks and avoid possible shrapnel, but Roy preferred to say on the deck rather than drown if a near miss sent the tank sliding into the sea.

    It says near to the top of p70 of NHL that "During the night their (re-attached) Rhino broke loose but eventually all was well" - and later "the loss of some Rhino ferries in the rough sea passage only added to the delay"

    I had been trying to see if the 24th L had lost any equipment (particularly any of their Sherman tanks) on these lost Rhinos, I don't think though that they lost any men.

    Roy himself says that his tank landed at Le Hamel nr. to Arromanches.

    i.e.

    REEL 1 Background in London and Romford area, 1923-1942: family circumstances; education; membership of Romford Home Guard; German Air Force attacks on Romford-Hornchurch area; listening to Churchill and Lord Haw Haw on radio. Aspects of armoured training in GB, 1942-1943: call up 7/1942; basic training and selection for armoured unit, Isle of Wight; move to armoured training at Cove. Aspects of period with 24 Lancers in GB, 1943-1944: posting to unit at Chippenham; reaction to change from Coventanters to Sherman tanks; move to Bridlington; waterproofing of tanks; move to concentration area at Hursley Park, 5/1944. Recollections of operations with A Sqdn, 24 Lancers in Normandy, 6/1944: landing from Rhino ferry at Le Hamel, Gold Beach, 6/6/1944; naming of tank 'Appy Ampstead'; composition of crew; reaction to advancing in tank; advance on Tilly sur Seulles; German 88mm shell hit on tank and wounding, 12/6/1944; his evacuation to GB. REEL 2 Continues: Aspects of medical treatment for wounds in GB from 6/1944: character of treatment; long term medical effects of wounds; psychological effects of his experiences; attitude to having served with 24 Lancers in Normandy; problems of securing disability pension. Aspects of operations with 24 Lancers in Normandy, 6/1944: opinion of tank radios; attitude to serving in tanks; question of personal morale in action; attitude towards Germans.

    This is in some contrast to the quote here: Gold Juno Sword

    Where Charlie Wilmott is quoted as saying: "As it happened, we lost the Rhinos on the way over. They broke away from the tow. There they were floating in the Channel. I've no idea where ours went. Fortunately we didn't need it; our ship went ashore as far as it could, where the water was just a few feet deep." - "The Beachmasters shepherded us off the LST and then up the beach"

    I knew that there was a nice pic of an A squadron 24th L tank actually on the beach:

    GOLD Area, 7 June 1944 Sherman III 'ARMAGEDDON' of 'A' Squadron - Google Search

    And: BHC 001056 Gold Beach 7 June 1944 Sherman III Armageddon
    Says:

    BHC 001056 Gold Beach 7 June 1944 Sherman III Armageddon
    Ref: BHC 001056
    GOLD Area, 7 June 1944 Sherman III 'ARMAGEDDON' of 'A' Squadron, 24 Lancers on the beach in GOLD Area, after debarking from an LST. LCT Mark IV 503 of 24th LCT FLotilla, 'L' LCT Squadron, LCT Mark III* 7096 of 19th LCT FLotilla, 'V' LCT Squadron
    various DUKW, Le Tourneau Crane on the right

    48 x 32 cm (5657 x 3760 px) @ 300DPI

    NHL has the names of the crew of ARMAGEDDON. There is a second (and a third) Sherman in the picture - Modelling

    So would be looking for the "Yellow Triangle" for A, there - or a "Yellow Square" - for B whilst a "Yellow Circle" for C.

    I think perhaps the second Sherman has a "square" and one that is light enough in B&W to also be a 24th L (the red and blue of the RDG and SRY would be darker in B&W) though it is not as clear here...
    https://www.battlefieldhistorian.com/itemimages/bhc001056zoom.jpg

    As it is in the picture on p79 in NHL. Again, I'm not sure of the original source of the "Gold Beach 7 June 1944 Sherman III Armageddon" picture - I would have presumed/guessed IWM - but it did not - at first glance - seem to be there

    Markings for 1/72nd Scale British Sherman Tanks

    Has: Sherman I 8th Armoured Brigade 24th Lancers Armageddon France 1944 Starmer's Armour 2 - British and Canadian Shermans in Europe 43-44

    And interestingly also: Sherman VC 8th Armoured Brigade 24th Lancers A Squadron Normandy 1944 Peddinghaus EP1779 - British Shermans and Stuarts at Normandy

    NHL does have on p78 "a long line of yellow triangles, A squadron" and "several more of our tanks appeared from C squadron, Lieut Dixon and his troop then Captain Robert Arbuthnot" - "by this time it was well into the afternoon" i.e. of 7 June 1944.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  3. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Rob

    The photo of Armageddon is ex IWM collection.
     
  4. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Ah! Yes, I noticed that on p Vi of NHL - i.e. in the frontpages in the list of "Illustrations" it says for that one:

    Gold Beach, D+1, 7th June 1944 (Imperial War Museum)
    - but it wasn't one I could currently get google - or the IWM's own search engine to root-out from there.
    So I guess it looks like a picture that they have disposed of / perhaps "sold on" ???

    BTW in passing I also saw that for the picture on p87 - that of the "C-Squadron group on Point 103, 13th June 1944" - the source for that one was listed as "W.Jackson". i.e. one of those actually in the picture (trooper front row - furthest to the right)

    There is a W.Jackson here: (I think he went by Bill Jackson to his friends or in later years???)
    24th Lancers Regimental Nominal Roll and Postings August 1944

    And he seems to have gone into the "1R.Tks" - when the 24th L were disbanded at the start of August 1944 I wonder if this means that he took a camera to Normandy - or was it just that whoever was the cameraman there gave him a copy of the subsequent photo.

    In this letter dated 12/6/1944:


    Dearest Phyl & Rob,

    I had to move away as they were sorting the mail yesterday so don’t know if there is any for me, I’m expecting about six.

    Don’t be surprised if you get a kitbag of mine turn up with some junk in it, we could send them free so I wouldn’t be out done.

    At the moment we are having a rest, I have Willy and L/C Lambourne with me and I hope to get young Beddow soon, I had to lend him out. Yesterday we had a run around to find the right place to go, we still haven’t found it, but they have given us some food and looked after us very well here, suits us fine. We have a Daily Express for Saturday the 10th, the news is accurate, so is the B.B.C. news. We have acquired a radio and are praying the batteries hold out.

    You can expect a letter from Spud, when you write back tell him I said for him to get in touch with Eric, if he hasn’t already seen him, and please tell him I’ve seen Aggil, Aggil is a bloke by the way, and Spud will be very pleased indeed with that spot of news. I’d write all this myself but I’ve lost the address, so send it on when you write.

    How’s our Rob, give him a big kiss from his Daddy. I trust the family are more disposed to be happy than you all were a few weeks ago. I hope you are keeping cheerful my dear; after all you have a responsible job soon so you mustn’t over worry yourself. I’m O.K., but I would like some leave!

    Cheerio darling all my love to you from your loving husband Ben.


    I had wondered if he (Ben) might have meant William/Bill Jackson there. But other possibilities could include someone called Wilcox, Wilmot or even Williams from surnames as well as a shorting of a first name etc. I suppose.
     
  5. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    One thing I did find though on the IWM via a search with "24th Lancer Gold Beach ": Imperial War Museums

    Was albeit "MEDIA NOT AVAILABLE ONLINE" : FOLLOW-UP UNITS ASSIGNED TO 30TH CORPS ARE DESPATCHED FROM FELIXSTOWE TO THE NORMANDY INVASION BEACHES IN LSTs Allocated Title (A70 33-4)

    Edit: FOLLOW-UP UNITS ASSIGNED TO 30TH CORPS ARE DESPATCHED FROM FELIXSTOWE TO THE NORMANDY INVASION BEACHES IN LSTs [Allocated Title]
    Has a currently viewable film


    FOLLOW-UP UNITS ASSIGNED TO 30TH CORPS ARE DESPATCHED FROM FELIXSTOWE TO THE NORMANDY INVASION BEACHES IN LSTs

    Full description
    I. Two Royal Navy LSTs wait to enter Felixstowe Docks. LST-406 docks at an embarkation 'hard' and receives a US Army jeep, an RAF Regiment Bofors gun detachment and Royal Engineers (?) through its bow doors.

    Full description
    I. Two Royal Navy LSTs wait to enter Felixstowe Docks. LST-406 docks at an embarkation 'hard' and receives a US Army jeep, an RAF Regiment Bofors gun detachment and Royal Engineers (?) through its bow doors.

    Full description
    II. A sapper captain appointed ship commander briefs British and American troops on board the LST on developments on the Russian front.

    Full description
    III. The tank landing ship leaves Felixstowe to join LSTs and invasion barges and small landing craft in tow behind tugs (?) sailing with Force 'L' for Normandy.

    Full description
    IV. The cameraman surveys the activity off 'Gold' Beach. Troops, vehicles, tanks (24th Lancers or 22nd Armoured Brigade) and stranded LCTs can be seen on 'Jig Green' Beach west of La Riviere. LST-406 lands engineering equipment and tanks from 693 Road Construction Company RE and the 4th City of London Yeomanry. British troops (1/7th Queens of Royal Engineers) wade ashore from a US Navy tank landing craft. Prisoners - some non-German - bound for England wait to board LST-406 before the tide turns.

    Physical description
    35mm

    Associated places
    Gold Beach, La Rivière, Calvados, France
    Felixstowe, Suffolk, England, UK

    Which also was (previously) discussed briefly here: Tank losses of the 24th Lancers in Normandy – June and July 1944
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2018
  6. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Rob

    Not all IWM photos are online...in fact only a small proportion are on line. I'm not sure of the one showing Armageddon.

    Bill Jackson died just a few years ago. Great guy who attended all Annual Reunions.
     
  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I had wondered if the picture of Armageddon might have been taken as a still frame from the said film. (i.e. The cameraman surveys the activity off 'Gold' Beach. Troops, vehicles, tanks (24th Lancers or 22nd Armoured Brigade)

    And I'd wonder if there were significantly more 24th L ones to discover still in extant/known archives - i.e. especially the IWM - though I guess they are still always adding to what they hold - as these (from history) seem already to be rather well referenced by book researchers/authors that seem to have been trawling the archives pretty thoroughly already over the last 70 or so years. Perhaps private archives / scrapbooks are still to be mined / might spring to light - but I did pick out this one of WAC Anderson just the other day:

    Lieutenant-Colonel WAC Anderson DSO and Captain Tedd Dunn leading the regiment to Pinneburg, 1945 | Online Collection | National Army Museum, London

    Where is says: "Lieutenant-Colonel WAC Anderson DSO and Captain Tedd Dunn leading the regiment to Pinneburg, 1945.
    Photograph by Major W H J Sale, MC, 3rd/4th County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters), World War Two, North West Europe, 1945.

    Major Sale's regiment ended the war near Hamburg having fought its way across Germany with 7th Armoured Division. The commanding officer's Sherman is pictured here leading the unit into the German town of Pinneburg.

    From an album containing 198 photographs and captions compiled by Major W H J Sale, MC, 3rd/4th County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters)."

    107734.jpg

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2020
  8. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    I don't think either of those two guys is WAC.

    He went from 24L to 22D and then, in February 1945 to the CLY so the Regiment is correct for that time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2016
  9. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I certainly wouldn't have recognised him - i.e. just from that pic. Only the perhaps tenuous (???) "caption" to go on there. And then comparison with "known" pics etc. of WAC. i.e. that for instance on p191 of NHL.

    And:

    [​IMG]

    For which there is a "better" image here: https://www.battlefieldhistorian.com/itemimages/bhc001074zoom.jpg

    From: Modelling

    The diamond (white in B&W - so I'm supposing the "yellow" in colour for the 24th L) - shows (in Rauray) a Sherman tank of the Regimental HQ.

    Via the other chap i.e. "Captain Ted Dunn" there are a slew of other pics on the same site:
    | Online Collection | Search Results | National Army Museum, London

    Including this one: 'The CO's tank', 1945 | Online Collection | National Army Museum, London

    'The CO's tank', 1945.
    Photograph by Major W H J Sale, MC, 3rd/4th County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters), World War Two, North West Europe, 1945.

    This Sherman tank belonged to Lieutenant Colonel WAC Anderson DSO who was in command of the regiment when the war ended. 3rd/4th County of London Yeomanry ended the conflict near Hamburg having fought its way across Germany with 7th Armoured Division.

    From an album containing 198 photographs and captions compiled by Major W H J Sale, MC, 3rd/4th County of London Yeomanry (Sharpshooters).

    [​IMG]

    Again though - it would be a high hazard to wonder if he could have kept his tank for months (and months etc). And that it might then (brazenly) even have been a long carry over from the 24th L days. Command tanks were typically more customised than standard Shermans though especially I guess in terms of the radio: British Radios | The Sherman Tank Site

    I noticed too that it says in NHL on p190 that he (WAC) "was chosen to get the 3rd/4th CLY back into fighting trim after it had been badly mauled in the battle of the Reichwad Forest on the German borders on 28th Feb 1945. That Regiment lost three of its five field officers killed or wounded besides other key personnel and a third of its tanks were knocked out."
     
  10. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    That last photo of WACs tank is interesting: it's showing a Lance with red and white pennon as well as the CLY badge on a flag. I'm now wondering if that is where at least one of the ceremonial 24L Lances went and that was WAC continuing to show Lancers loyalty. Of course we are never likely to know!
     
  11. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    I've seen this photograph on ebay before but it's come up again. So either didn't sell or is being sold on again. Someone's keen tho (maybe)
    http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/351891387580
    Looks to be some landing craft in the background also where there's one there must be more!

    Shaun
     
  12. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Shaun

    That's an old print from the IWM photo collection. New prints can obviously still be bought from the IWM (who hold the negatives and a photolibrary copy of the print) but old copies of the print can also clearly enter the secondhand (or should that be 'preloved') market...as appears to have happened here.

    Steve
     
    norton 407545 likes this.
  13. saintconor

    saintconor Senior Member

    Interesting thread. I came about it by accident as I have the 'Army Certificate of Education' Third Class & Second Class belonging to Sgt C Wilmot - A Squadron, 24th Lancers. These were issued to him with his original unit, 9th Lancers.
     
  14. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Interesting! Do you know anything about Charlie? Are you related?
     
  15. saintconor

    saintconor Senior Member

    I don't unfortunately, just what I discovered online. He was from Plymouth. Ended up a Chelsea Pensioner.
     
  16. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    WS/Sgt C F E Wilmot
    Army Number: 316442
    24th Lancers 'A' Squadron
    He was wounded (I would need to dig deeper to find further details)
    He was Commander of the second tank in 5th Troop 'A' Squadron.
    Troop structure: effective D Day 6th June 1944
    5th Troop
    Tank 1. Lt Barry
    Tank 2. Sgt Wilmot
    Tank 3. Sgt Taylor

    He is mentioned briefly a couple of times in None Had Lances.

    If memory serves me right, he was mentioned in a Times newspaper article - he was a contributor? - corresponding to the 2004 60th Anniversary of the D Day landings where his experience of the run-in to Gold Beach was described in some detail.
     
  17. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Michel

    Some time since this post re Hards loading times so please forgive me if we've already covered this somewhere else (albeit I can't find it!)

    Does this help reconcile the five versus six LSTs ? I'm under the impression that the Landing Table is missing serial 2926 and the Loading Table is correct.....?

    100_2083.JPG

    It basically shows the craft Serial, Hard and Loading Times.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
  18. Steve,

    The ONEAST/G.TWO doc (Embarkation Timetable) you posted was the source which made me state that "the Naval Orders dated 20 May 44 mention a sixth LST Serial 2926".

    Because of its later date, the Embarkation Timetable is indeed more likely to be correct than the Landing Table issued earlier, but I have yet to find evidence that Serial 2926 was actually used (and to find its hull number...).

    Michel
     
    SDP likes this.
  19. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Thanks sincerely for this clarification.

    I've checked None Had Lances (as you know that's the Regimental history) and it twice mentions that six LSTs were used. The number 'six' is used once and, on the other occasion, it states 'visited the other five' - therefore meaning six in total. None Had Lances only mentions two Hull Humbers - 229 and 139.

    While, like yourself, I believe in fully validated information, on this occasion I'm using the web transcripted version of the Landing Tables because I don't have access to the original version and the transcripted version only includes Serial 2921-2925 as the five vessels scheduled to land on the Second Tide with 56 Brigade. No other vessels are mentioned for that 56 Brigade Second Tide. I'm now wondering if the Landing Table (the original and/or the transcript) has lost the information about the sixth LST due to truncation or, as you (and me) feel, due to some quirk of paperwork date etc.

    Quick question: do you have access to the original copy of the Landing Tables?

    Steve
     
  20. Steve,

    Unfortunately no, I do not have access to the original Landing Table, which would tell us whether the online transcripted version was truncated, or if LTIN 2926 was added after it was issued.

    Thanks for confirming that there were indeed six LST. However, LST 139 was part of Follow Up Force "L" (see the Yellow Square around the hull number on the frame below) and probably had LTIN in the 3000 block rather than one of 2921-2906:
    LST 139 Force L - 488-074-572 - 01.29 - 03.jpg

    Holborn in his work about 56 Bde quotes a testimony mentioning US LST 519, which, if correct, should be one of the five (or six) LST 2921-2925 (or 2926).

    Michel
     
    SDP likes this.

Share This Page