Tank losses of the 24th Lancers in Normandy – June and July 1944

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Ramiles, Jan 19, 2016.

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  1. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Hi all,

    This will most probably take a fair while, but it's a "long term goal" as I’ve been looking into it (with renewed effort) for almost a year now and I’d like if possible to try to collate together some of the refs. (especially those I have up to now in passing seen) to the tank losses of the 24th Lancers in Normandy in June and July 1944.

    I’ve seen quite a few of these “mentions” now, i.e. scattered about in various war diaries, books and separate accounts and would like to see if I could start to come up with something of a more definitive list and would welcome any help or extra information that anyone may have to add to this.

    What I’m hopefully aiming for is something like a reference to a particular on-line, WD or book based account and a date and a location of said 24th L loss where available perhaps. It might be possible to attach some details of KIA’s and WIA’s as well, but I’m not completely sure, as these all too seldom seem to be made clear.

    In some cases too it is not always attributable what the state of damage to a particular tank was, i.e. might just say a 24th Lancer tank was “hit” or “sustained damage” without going at all into any casualties or extent of damage etc. as well as in the varied accounts when a particular tank is said to have been knocked out always to be 100% certain whose tank this was.

    I had thought about trying perhaps, at some stage, to attempt to put all of these details in to a map, but the kind of information I currently have is a bit too varied to probably be very amenable to that. (I might still give it a go though!)

    I’ll try to sort them therefore in at least some kind of chronological order below, and include location (probably just approximate/best guess) where known (and this might certainly help distinguish between similar but actually different engagements/accounts). In the case of unspecified or unclear data, I think I’ll probably just include what I know (i.e. just at the moment now) and save that extra detail for amendment by any further discussion / research.

    Where something in a published reference is actually now thought contentious or just plain wrong I’ll try to keep a note also, and I guess either highlight it (as an issue) in the list or else just leave it completely out.

    Please feel free to attach any details to refs. of such 24th L losses you may also know, and any extra detail pertaining to such you may have.

    The War dairy for the 24th L for example for the month of June 1944 says:

    The Regiment suffered the following casualties during the month of June.

    Officers. 4 Killed 23 Wounded

    O.R’s. 20 Killed 95 Wounded 4 Missing believed killed.

    The Regiment lost 28 Tanks destroyed and 10 damaged.

    The Regiment inflicted the following casualties in vehicles on the enemy during the same period.

    Tanks destroyed 19
    A/Tk guns 2
    SP guns 3
    ½ Tracked vehicles 5
    Armoured cars 5

    So I’ve been tempted too to see if in all of these various accounts there is similar information about when and where the 24th L claimed to have KO’d those German tanks, A/Tk & S guns, ½ Tracked vehicles and Armoured cars.

    If this seems possible - at some point - I might similarly attempt to chronologically collate and post these too

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
  2. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    List of Tank losses of the 24th Lancers in Normandy – June and July 1944

    (Nb. Work in progress at the mo.) - I'll add refs and notes and check dates at bit further etc.

    For some info. on 24th L's landings on the Normandy beaches see: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/56252-gold-beach/page-2#entry655312

    And some related queries here: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/60153-24th-lancers-lst-query/

    7/6/1944 : Wednesday 7th June 1944

    24L feature in a couple of films. 7/6/44 in A70 33-4 The cameraman surveys the activity off 'Gold' Beach. Troops, vehicles, tanks (24th Lancers or 22nd Armoured Brigade) and stranded LCTs can be seen on 'Jig Green' Beach west of La Riviere. LST-406 lands engineering equipment and tanks from 693 Road Construction Company RE and the 4th City of London Yeomanry. British troops (1/7th Queens of Royal Engineers) wade ashore from a US Navy tank landing craft. Prisoners - some non-German - bound for England wait to board LST-406 before the tide turns.

    A "B" squadron firefly is reported to have broken its prop whilst on a ramp moving from a Rhino raft on to the Normandy beach : Monty s Marauders

    "B" squadron tank Bloody Mary hit by a panzerfaust nr. Brazenville : There is an account of this in the book Monty's Marauders, though it is not clear to me whether this tank was merely damaged or destroyed : Monty’s Marauders

    For a thread on Brazenville see here: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/57470-bazenville-normandy-b2/?hl=brazenville

    Nb. KIA on this date I have recorded an "A" squadron 24th L tank commander in Martragny, lost to a sniper : Before I Go

    8/06/1944 : Thursday 8th June 1944

    A stuart tank was destroyed while it was advancing down the main Bayeux-Caen road just East of St Leger. (24th L WD) - some description of this is recounted about 6 minutes in to the second reel of this IWM audio by Reginald Osgerby or the 24th L Recce troop who was there: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80017411
    "B" sqd also appears to have lost a tank at Putot-en-Bessin - this may have been "Buq Buq" ??? Or perhaps a similar "B" starting name?
    "C" squadron (Where ref says destroyed by German 88's on the way to Tilly) : Fallen Heroes of Normandy | Detail

    For a thread on Putot-en-Bessin see here: Battle of Putot-en-Bessin (7th - 11th June 1944)

    Nb. KIA on this date I have seen recorded at least seven 24th Lancers from HQ, A, B and C squadrons.

    9/6/1944 : Friday 9th June 1944

    I have seen reports of two KIA "C" squadron 24th Lancers on this date, one of which KIA (the driver) was associated with the loss of the Sherman Firefly of Lt.Garia (1st tank 5th troop of "C" sqd 24th L). There may also have been other lost or damaged tanks, as some accounts I have seen from the DLI seem to mention the Germans "destroying one or two of our tanks" on this date as C squadron 24th L assisted the DLI in the attack on St.Pierre.

    10/06/1944 : Saturday 10th June 1944

    During this action the 24th L Regiment suffered casualties in tanks and personnel and the Commanding Officer was wounded. (Some accounts say "C" squadron 24th L lost 12 tanks in the area of St.Pierre. (24th L WD)

    I have seen reports of three KIA 24th Lancers on this date, two in "C" squadron and one in HQ.

    My grandfather - Sgt.Ben Symes - 1st Troop of "C" Squadron 24th L wrote - "10th June 1944 - Spud was hit, Tim was hit Bamby / (Brindley?) killed, tank burnt out"

    11/06/1944 : Sunday 11th June 1944

    Reports of six tanks of the 24th L being knocked out on Point 103 (NHLp61). I have also seen reports of two KIA "B" squadron 24th Lancers on this date.

    My grandfather - Sgt.Ben Symes - 1st Troop of "C" Squadron 24th L wrote - "Hawk's lost tank in early morning Rough fighting all day. Eric hit on way in. Broken leg."

    Some IWM photos ref'd as taken on this date:

    11/6/1944: IWM Catalogue # B 5416: A Sherman Firefly tank of 24th Lancers, 8th Armoured Brigade, near St Leger, 11 June 1944:
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205201987

    11/6/1944: IWM Catalogue # B 5417: Sherman tanks of 24th Lancers, 8th Armoured Brigade, moving up to the front near St Leger, 11 June 1944: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205204610

    Nb... B 5416 & 5417 were filmed (A70 43-1) as well as photographed 11/6/44 A padre holds an open-air service for men serving with the 5th Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment in an orchard in St Léger before the battalion returns to the front-line. Sherman and Firefly tanks belonging to the 24th Lancers move 'A' Squadron up towards the village of Audrieu and Point 103 (Le Haut D'Audrieu) in support of 69th Brigade's operations designed to outflank Tilly-sur-Seulles.

    Nb. not currently available online - A70 43-1: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060013188

    12/06/1944 : Monday 12th June 1944

    My grandfather - Sgt.Ben Symes - 1st Troop of "C" Squadron 24th L wrote - "Left regiment with 16 men. Moved to FDS. On to beach. Finished up at 30 Div HQ. Slept that night at la Noc / La Noe (?)"

    Two 24th L tanks reported lost : http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/thread/1315859685/'T'+numbers+-+24th+Lancers+and+3RTR

    (Cut'n'paste for link : www.network54.com/Forum/47208/thread/1315859685/'T'+numbers+-+24th+Lancers+and+3RTR )

    T152214
    M4A2 75mm
    Crew: Dews, Luker, Chapman, Hoffman, Jarvis.
    Fate: 'Destroyed by enemy action 12th June 1944. Crew all safe'. Replaced by T151040.


    T150995
    M4A2 75mm
    Crew: Johnson, Ecclestone, Barton, Clayden, Ryder.
    Fate: 'Destroyed by enemy action 12th June 1944. All safe'. Replaced by T151317.


    A possible tank loss on the 12/6/44 "The Ram" was hit by a Panzerfausts (see post #30 below)

    Reported loss of an "A" squadron tank on this date : http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mirror-readers-heartbreaking-memories-of-d-day-398101

    I have seen reports of nine KIA 24th Lancers on this date. A mix of HQ, A, and B squadrons (& see post #50 below).

    13/06/1944 : Tuesday 13th June 1944

    Film clip of 24th Lancers: A70 43-2 Production Date: 13-06-1944 : III. Shermans belonging to the 8th Armoured Brigade (24th Lancers ?), a Centaur 95mm close-support gun, tanks from No 2 Battery Royal Marine Armoured Support Group and a single Austin K5 3-ton lorry proceed along the Bayeux - Tilly-sur-Seulles (?) road to join 50th (Northumbrian) Division's 151st Brigade. Discussion here - identifying the likely location and that these are perhaps 4/7RDG Shermans, not those of the 24th L: Nr. Bayeux or Tilly Sur Seulles - could anyone help further identify where these Sherman tanks are?

    17/6/1944 : Saturday 17th June 1944

    At 1600 hours approx, 2 of the tanks of a "B" Squadron Tp were shot up by 88mm guns. The crews managed to bale out with the exception of one man killed. (24th L WD)

    For a thread on the Battles for the parc de Bois Londe: The Battles for the Parc de Bois Londe (17th-18th June 1944)

    I have seen reports of three KIA 24th Lancers on this date. All in "B" squadron. There is also the mention on page 99 of NHL of "C" squadron of the 24th L loosing two tanks "on the way to relieve" B squadron.

    25/6/1944 : Sunday 25th June 1944

    Throughout the day the Regiment experienced very heavy and intense mortar fire on its positions and sustained casualties. (24th L WD)

    A further troop was sent up and in the resultant battle one of the Panthers was destroyed for the loss of one of our tanks. (24th L WD)

    Lt. Frank Fuller's B squadron tank BUCCANEER brewed up at Tessel Wood Normandy 25th June 1944 : Allied WWII AFV Discussion Group: 24th Lancers: a tank name and number for you..........

    The 24th L Regiment in their position North of the road were forced to move further back into some orchards on the forward slope overlooking Fontenay, owing to some heavy and well directed enemy mortar fire which was causing casualties. (24th L WD)

    I have seen reports of two KIA 24th Lancers on this date. Both in "B" squadron.

    26/06/1944 : Monday 26th June 1944

    In a report (24th L WD) given by an "A" squadron troop sergeant - "We were hit ourselves in the rear at the same time and had to evacuate the tank" (One tank lost or damaged)

    I have seen accounts of five 24th Lancers KIA on this date, three "A" squadron and two "B".

    A 17-pdr (Firefly) Sherman in the HQ Troop of "A" squadron 24th L was also hit with HE in Tessel wood - and damaged. See: Tank losses of the 24th Lancers in Normandy – June and July 1944

    30/06/1944 : Friday 30th June 1944

    I have seen accounts on one "B" squadron 24th Lancer KIA on this date. Believed to have been in (or close to) a jeep at the time.

    An IWM photos ref'd as taken on this date:

    30/6/1944: IWM Catalogue # B 6226: A Sherman tank of 24th Lancers, 8th Armoured Brigade, passing a knocked-out German PzKpfw V Panther tank near Rauray, 30 June 1944 : http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205204595

    01/07/1044 : Saturday 1st July 1944

    Three 24th L Sherman's were lost on this day, one from "B" Squadron 24th L, the other two from "C" Squadron 24th L. : Defence of Rauray by the 24th Lancers, Tyneside Scottish et alia

    Date currently unknown

    These "C" squadron losses may/may not relate to the sometimes reported losses of c12 "C" squadron tanks around the 10th June 1944.

    Lt. Garai (C squadron 24th L) was wounded after his Firefly tank was knocked out by a German tank. When?(circa July 1944) Where? (Point 103 or on advance to St.Pierre) : http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80015847

    Sergeant "Spud" Taylors - "C" squadron tank was reported lost (by my grandfather) shortly after the events as recounted here (possibly around the 10th July 1944):
    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/60164-rescuing-a-c-squadron-24th-lancers-tank-in-no-man’s-land-normandy-june-1944/

    I suspect that Eric Hanson's "C" squadron firefly was lost when he was wounded (possibly around the 10th July 1944)
    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/60153-24th-lancers-lst-query/

    This list currently adds up to around 22 or the 28 KO'd tanks noted by the 24th L war diary in June, however a further 10 damaged 24th L tanks have also to be accounted for and some of those above might have been accounted damaged and not destroyed (if they were subsequently recovered and repaired)

    This is as recounted by my grandfather many years after the war and I am trying to tie down this series of "events", around this time, to a specific date: (If as I suspect the tanks on either side of my grandfather were of his C squadron troop, these tanks were possibly those of Lieutenant Hawkins and Corporal Corbett) - nb. the approach to Fontenay was probably around the 25th June 1944.

    "Then we moved to a place called Fontenay Le Pesnel and it happened that we didn’t know the area, anyway our approach was stinking, we came over a hill so close together it must have been a dream target to the Germans, they knocked out the tanks each side of me, the crews were out in a flash and one ran to my tank and I could see he was asking “which way”, I had time to point and we were away like hell, I had told my driver to move and fast down the slope towards a clump of trees, now I had a moment to tell the crew on the inter-com what we were up to, telling the driver to swing left before the trees, stay in the open and get back up the slope putting on all speed, which wasn’t much as we got near where we’d come out, there was a gap and we made it. I heard a cheer go up and was surprised to find the rest of the squadron there while two tanks had gone into the clump, telling my crew to take it easy I jumped down and as I did a young officer walking towards me kicked a phosphorous bomb and was covered with the damn stuff, I called to my crew to throw down the gentian violet and covered his face with it and he was taken off in an ambulance but was back next day none the worse. Two days later he was killed..."

    Other 24th L tank losses as recounted by my grandfather:

    Here is an account of where he lost one of his own tanks, where damaged by a mine it subsequently had to be destroyed: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/601...le-of-whiskey-and-a-sherman-tank-in-normandy/

    See also threads here on Tessel: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/57173-24th-lancers-tessel-wood-c25th-june-1944/

    And Rauray: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/571...y-the-24th-lancers-tyneside-scottish-et-alia/
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
    dfielder likes this.
  3. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Links to some audio about the 24th Lancer tanks in Normandy

    Reginald Osgerby: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80017411
    British NCO served with 2nd Bn East Riding Yeomanry and 10th Bn Green Howards in GB, 1939-1942; served with 24th Lancers and with 2nd Fife and Forfar Yeomanry in GB and Normandy, 1942-1944

    Links to some pictures (with places and dates where possible) of 24th Lancer tanks in Normandy

    There's a "handy-guide" to tank markings British Tank Markings in Normandy (including the 24th Lancers part in the 8th Armoured Brigade) : http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=590

    11/6/1944: IWM Catalogue # B 5416: A Sherman Firefly tank of 24th Lancers, 8th Armoured Brigade, near St Leger, 11 June 1944:
    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205201987

    11/6/1944: IWM Catalogue # B 5417: Sherman tanks of 24th Lancers, 8th Armoured Brigade, moving up to the front near St Leger, 11 June 1944: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205204610

    30/6/1944: IWM Catalogue # B 6226: A Sherman tank of 24th Lancers, 8th Armoured Brigade, passing a knocked-out German PzKpfw V Panther tank near Rauray, 30 June 1944 : http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205204595
     
  4. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    It all depends what you define as a 'knocked out tank. At the end of each day a count was taken. It listed 3 types of tank. Tanks 'fit'. Tanks damaged but repairable in under 24 hours and tanks with damage needing workshop repair/total losses/not with the unit. The last category were 'total losses' for the unit. Thus it is possible a War Diary will note 10 tanks were stricken and some(possibly all) of the tanks that were written off were later repaired and put back in the replacement pool.
    This is a very tricky area and made more problematic by the way both sides losses are commonly recorded. A German unit might have 15 casualties one day with 5 tanks burnt out, 5 heavily damaged and 5 lightly damaged. They would record this as 20 fit tanks, 5 in short term repair and 10 in long term repair. Anyone consulting the Unit history will see the numbers as 20+5+10 and record them as having 35 tanks and if the previous day they had 35 tanks listed assert they had no losses. The way these numbers are collected and used gives an artificial advantage to the Germans.
    I find it impossible to make sense of most War Diary tank loss accounts and the only safe numbers are the 'Last Light' totals. German numbers are so patchy and incomplete that you will never get an accurate account of their losses. It is an impossible task.
     
  5. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks m kenny, I take your point! a very tricky area I know! ;)

    I thought though I'd continue this as I am getting a bit closer now to perhaps tying down when (some of) it actually might have "occurred": and it might "trigger something" out there :)

    ...so this is as recounted by my grandfather many years after the war and I am trying to tie down this series of "events", around this time, to a specific date or even rough date: (If as I suspect the tanks on either side of my grandfather were of his C squadron troop, these tanks were possibly those of Lieutenant Hawkins and Corporal Corbett) - nb. the approach to Fontenay was probably around the 25th June 1944.

    "Then we moved to a place called Fontenay Le Pesnel and it happened that we didn’t know the area, anyway our approach was stinking, we came over a hill so close together it must have been a dream target to the Germans, they knocked out the tanks each side of me, the crews were out in a flash and one ran to my tank and I could see he was asking “which way”, I had time to point and we were away like hell, I had told my driver to move and fast down the slope towards a clump of trees, now I had a moment to tell the crew on the inter-com what we were up to, telling the driver to swing left before the trees, stay in the open and get back up the slope putting on all speed, which wasn’t much as we got near where we’d come out, there was a gap and we made it. I heard a cheer go up and was surprised to find the rest of the squadron there while two tanks had gone into the clump, telling my crew to take it easy I jumped down and as I did a young officer walking towards me kicked a phosphorous bomb and was covered with the damn stuff, I called to my crew to throw down the gentian violet and covered his face with it and he was taken off in an ambulance but was back next day none the worse. Two days later he was killed..."

    "...Later that day I was told to stay on outpost, my tank troop with infantry to hold the high ground. Nothing happened until about 3am when I called over the sentry and told him I was getting down, he would then stay until I got back up. This was the first time I’d been down in the dark and when I looked at the tank it was an amazing sight, covered in phosphorous, shining like a bloody beacon. The sentry said he noticed it but didn’t know if we kept them like that! So out came the crew and the rest of the night was spent removing the asbestos grease we had used for scaling and covering each spot of phosphorous.

    We spent three days and nights up there with only radio contact. The CO came up on the air at one point and said they were going to break out and saying he was sorry but we had to stay on the hill and hoped we’d soon move up again, but that was cancelled.
    The day after we got down it appears the Germans were bringing in more tanks...

    ...Before you could think the damn Germans were amongst us, someone spotted them and of course there was movement. The evening before (30th June?Rm) we had walked up to the forward infantry to see the ground, it was quiet, they did throw over some mortars, and although we may have looked cool when they passed over I swear my temperature went up when we got back we found the mortars had landed among our tanks and my troop corporal who had been having a bath dived up a tank in his birthday suit. Now here’s a funny thing, a few days later his wife wrote him and mentioned the incident and told him she had seen it in a newspaper even mentioned his name. (C.F.Lambourne (I Rm think?!))

    While the Germans who had infiltrated were being repelled (1st July Rm?) , my radio set hadn’t warmed up so I was being cursed a bit on the air. I had moved into position nicely and managed to get off an HE at some Germans leaping a trench, they seemed to land together, my gunner never missed, we had trained together and he knew my patter. We then took up position leaving a hedge when we could see some figures running towards us, down the hedge angled to our hedge, they were our chaps, the outposts we had seen the day before. Then the German tanks started to roll across our front about 800 yards away. It was a nuisance because they came into view and then went out of sight so I had the turret swing to pick one up as he came into view. I had nice time to range him and had him close in my binoculars, as I said my gunner was good and he hit him right between the tracks, I told him to put an HE through the hole he had made, which he did and that started the days work[1]. A tank carried about 100 mixed shells, some High Explosive some armour piercing, well we used these and sent one tank back to load all it could to replenish the troop and we fought on till almost dark and also we had called to the artillery to bring down a barrage. A lot of tanks, Germans, were knocked out that day (1st July Rm? Perhaps?) and yet when asked how many tanks we had knocked out (this is cross your heart stuff) I could only say one, if anyone had said did you have a cup of tea or eat anything or jump down to go to the lavatory, I couldn’t have told them. There is a point where concentration is so intense that you know what to do every second and you do it but to explain it afterwards was to me academic. There was no point in it for me and I found if pressed I could be very rude. Anyway it was tiring.



    [1] Which I think would put the German KO’d tank with the AP hole covered by HE scorching somewhere like Queudeville or just to the south of Rauray, though at the mo. this is just a guess :salut:
     
  6. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Hi Rob I hope you don't mind me posting these here but this seems like a good thread to post the photos I sent you the other day.
    Both being tagged as 24L tanks but I agree the firefly could just be a picture plucked from any album but the second with the soldiers in may have more credibility
    Just a shame I can't make out any markings on either tank or soldier's.
    There's also a picture in the book battle of tilly which shows a knocked out sherman called Blimey Bill which is also tagged as 24L but I've not been able to find the photo online yet.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    No probs Shaun,

    That's what this thread's for.

    I had this*: http://media.iwm.org.uk/iwm/mediaLib/47/media-47558/large.jpg?action=d

    ...from a recent "24th L" search and I've been trying to figure out why it came up as a suggestion there:

    And stumbled across some amazing photos here (only about 1/3rd of which I have seen before) - at the same time and quite a few of which are from the Normandy area: http://histomil.com/viewtopic.php?f=338&t=3918&hilit=ved&start=2900

    Anyone with a camera in mid to late 1940's Normandy might have taken a passing snap of Sherman (intact or a k'o'd) tank there so there might still just be hopes of tracking down some "new" snaps of one's that might actually be 24th L's.

    Sad to see them so, but important I think to try to start to collect a record of what it is still possible to find, in family photo albums and official archives and books etc out there.

    A caption on this colourised one: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/aa/ef/ee/aaefeef5e322ae0348add243422a0a68.jpg

    Says (I have to admit I think from memory - as I don't have time to re-look for it yet) it is thought by its poster to be a troop of 24th L Shermans passing a downed Spitfire in a field, presumably near to St.Leger too, I guess in the area of the advanced landing ground at Brazenville. **

    All the best,

    Rm.

    Ps. http://histomil.com/viewtopic.php?f=338&t=3918&p=74746&hilit=24th+Lancers#p74746

    *Caption says: "A tank recovery unit works to extricate a Sherman from a ditch, 6 August 1944."

    But the one above it is the "well known"
    "A Sherman tank of 24th Lancers, 8th Armoured Brigade, passing a knocked-out German PzKpfw V Panther tank near Rauray, 30 June 1944"

    So it's "all" perhaps google's fault ? ;) Also the Polish 24th Lancers does sometimes crop up :salut:

    ** This: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/405112928956806112/
    Says the "Spit and tanks" photo was taken nr. Tilly on the 17th June.
     
  8. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic Patron

    Shaun and Rob

    I've seen/heard the tank name Blimey Bill somewhere before but I can't remember where! I've a sneaky feeling that it was in conversation with a former crew member at a Reunion years ago because he explained that they wanted to use a more 'traditional' version of that name but were told to keep things polite ;-) It must also have been a B Squadron tank.

    Probably it's me getting confused but the tank in the ditch can't be 24L if the date is correct as they had been disbanded by that time. It also looks like a DD tank and 24L didn't have any of those.
     
  9. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Steve The picture in the battle of tilly book of Blimey Bill is a good clear picture. I just can't seem to find it online I guess stéphane got it directly from someone rather then online.
    Rob some good links you have found there as there are many pictures I've not seen before and I've seen quite a few over the last couple of years.
     
  10. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Shaun,

    Did you see the one of: "A sergeant of the Royal Army Veterinary Corps bandages the wounded ear of 'Jasper', a mine-detecting dog at Bayeux in Normandy, 5 July 1944". :( : http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205194516

    Awww!

    I did try a search with: "tank recovery unit" "Sherman" Normandy 1944 in google images :

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22tank+recovery+unit%22+%22Sherman%22+Normandy+1944&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXltTV6s_KAhVFwBQKHXn-DNQQ_AUIBygB&biw=1280&bih=685

    And got a number of "interesting" leads but all too often the captions are a bit too vague there.

    Anyhow seems like a "hobby" for a few years or perhaps a decade at the very least :P

    Re. Blimey Bill though, I did manage to "pull-out" this from thin air - Unfortunately not yet available online but: IWM - Collection: BROSTER LESLIE HERBERT : http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205014396
    "Object description - Black and white prints taken in Northwest Europe relating to Herbert Broster's service in the British Army during 1945. Subjects covered include knocked out Sherman tanks including one named BLIMEY BILL, damaged buildings in the *Avranches, Arnhem, Cristot, Cagny and Cologne areas as well as war graves and blown bridges. The British cemetery at Hottot Les Bagues is featured as are individual roadside graves where troops were burried as they fell. There is also one photograph of a sign displaying British Army humour of the period which reads 'Luxurious Flats (Mud) H&C (Mostly C), Boating Swimming and Shooting (Both ways) and Bosch Hunting in the woods..."

    * "damaged buildings in the Avranches, Arnhem, Cristot, Cagny and Cologne areas " Is a somewhat random way of organising a list. Almost but not quite alphabetical, hardly chronological. Plus other "Blimey Bill"'s may very well have been there.

    There is also this rather old (2006) thread that mentions the 24th Lancer's "Blimey Bill" as well, with SDP also contributing there :) ) : http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/thread/1161614596/Tasca+Firefly+update%3A+pictures+of+finished+model!
     
  11. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    [​IMG]
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    If anyone has a copy of the IWM Archive when it looked like that I would be interested as well as the B number for any of the above!
     
  12. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    For the "Animals in War 1939-1945" section: (I've put in this) : http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/60339-animals-in-war-1939-1945/

    A lot of great IWM pictures are here: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/search?query=ANIMALS%20IN%20WAR%201939-1945

    And there's this too: Catalogue number: HU 43577 : THE PDSA Carries on: A mobile PDSA (People's Dispensary for Sick Animals) van giving aid to Londoners' pets in a badly bombed area of the city during the Blitz. : http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205087016

    Not sure if there was already an actual thread to this topic though? But I did see a few refs to the PDSA and the Dicken medal for example in some other posts.

    Great pictures though!

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
  13. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Re. those pictures Shaun, (m kenny has provided an answer to this in post # 14 below - so pretty much ignore the rest of this post unless you fancy a bit of a read ;) )

    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/60248-tank-losses-of-the-24th-lancers-in-normandy-–-june-and-july-1944/?p=697316

    Can you specifically say where you originally saw them and if there was any other info associated with them?

    I think that the first one is from a Twitter post? Not sure who the postee was though? i.e. what their hashtag # was and when they posted it there?

    I assume someone is referencing the tank number on the Firefly and there is some caption that is now missing from the picture there?

    There are a few (but fairly limited) tank numbers for the 24th L around plus the markings on: http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=590

    Can help a bit when a picture is very clear and the nothing is obscuring the markings there.

    Even the "colours" can be distinguished somewhat from a black and white pic, i.e. it can be "possible" to make out differences in shade between the 994 Reds (4/7 RDG's), 995 Yellow (24th L's) and 996 Blue (SRY's) - with the 24th L's yellow tending to be the lighter in B&W of those 3 there.
     
  14. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Ramiles likes this.
  15. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Bien fait et beaucoup de mercis! (post #14)

    That'd be a no to both Shaun, unless IWM has some caption amending to do. I think "m kenny" has it. :D

    Catalogue # B 6642 : Sherman tanks of 33rd Armoured Brigade, supporting 3rd Infantry Division, moving forward near Lebisey Wood for Operation CHARNWOOD, the assault on Caen, 8 July 1944 : http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205194929

    &

    Catalogue # B 7423 : A Sherman Firefly advances during operations in the Odon valley, west of Caen, 16 July 1944 : http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205202172

    BTW...there is a map of the Normandy Bridgehead (6-30th June 1944) showing the Odon on here: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/Canada/CA/Victory/sk/Victory-9.jpg

    BTW2....The IWM has a good pic of the Firefly, but though I tried to capture and view the number to see it better magnified, I am unable to quite make it out. (No biggie though - as tank number to actual regiment allotment is not currently one of my primary pursuits ;) )

    All the best and many thanks!

    Rm.
     
  16. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    24L feature in a couple of films. 7/6/44 in A70 33-4

    The cameraman surveys the activity off 'Gold' Beach. Troops, vehicles, tanks (24th Lancers or 22nd Armoured Brigade) and stranded LCTs can be seen on 'Jig Green' Beach west of La Riviere. LST-406 lands engineering equipment and tanks from 693 Road Construction Company RE and the 4th City of London Yeomanry. British troops (1/7th Queens of Royal Engineers) wade ashore from a US Navy tank landing craft. Prisoners - some non-German - bound for England wait to board LST-406 before the tide turns.







    B 5416 & 5417 were filmed (A70 43-1) as well as photographed 11/6/44

    A padre holds an open-air service for men serving with the 5th Battalion East Yorkshire Regiment in an orchard in St Léger before the battalion returns to the front-line. Sherman and Firefly tanks belonging to the 24th Lancers move 'A' Squadron up towards the village of Audrieu and Point 103 (Le Haut D'Audrieu) in support of 69th Brigade's operations designed to outflank Tilly-sur-Seulles.



    A70 43-2 Production Date: 13-06-1944

    III. Shermans belonging to the 8th Armoured Brigade (24th Lancers ?), a Centaur 95mm close-support gun, tanks from No 2 Battery Royal Marine Armoured Support Group and a single Austin K5 3-ton lorry proceed along the Bayeux - Tilly-sur-Seulles (?) road to join 50th (Northumbrian) Division's 151st Brigade.
     
    Ramiles likes this.
  17. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    So my uncle often remarked, my grandfather wrote to tell him he was in one (or more) and my uncle (who was very young then) naively assumed he was off fighting in the hills of Hollywood with the likes of John Wayne ;)

    I think I have seen one or two youtube clips and I think that the IWM have some available there to view both on and off-line. :rolleyes:

    There's this one too perhaps (sadly off-line though) as an interesting bit of history prior to D-day (actually seems to say April 1944) - I'll term this one 24th L's meeting Eisenhower: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060008434

    THE 8TH ARMOURED BRIGADE ENTRAINS AT NEWMARKET TO TRANSFER TO ITS PRE-INVASION ASSEMBLY AREA IN SOUTHERN ENGLAND (PART 3) [Allocated Title]

    Supplementary material to Sergeant Watkins' coverage of various aspects of the despatch by rail of the 8th Armoured Brigade from Newmarket to Winchester and General Eisenhower's brief inspection of its troops and vehicles while en route to Scotland.

    Full description : An LNER signalman (Mr J G Hayward) leaves his signal box to close the gates at Wood Ditton level crossing. The wheels of a train dash by over the crossing. 10/4/1944, three men from the 24th Lancers (?) load kit from the back of a lorry into a baggage van at Newmarket Old Station. Two officers are seen addressing a party of 24th Lancers on a station platform prior to their train journey. Two locomotives in tandem pull ten Shermans and Fireflies loaded onto 'Warflats' and a passenger coach through Six Mile Bottom station. An M5 half-track and a Valentine Scissors Bridgelayer belonging to the 4/7th Dragoon Guards are driven onto 'Conflats' at Newmarket. 11/4/1944, accompanied by the RAF Flight Lieutenant in charge of railway transport in the Cambridge area, Eisenhower inspects vehicles belonging to the 24th Lancers awaiting despatch on 'Conflats'. He is introduced to the station master and railway superintendent.

    With some similar mentions of the 24th L in the related objects section below.

    Ps... Thanks "m kenny" I'll put those texts from (post#16) into the chronology up in (post #2) - they should be a help there!
     
  18. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Rob ill have a good read through this tomorrow. Shame about the two photos but it's not surprising really.
     
  19. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks Shaun,

    I've managed to have a look at the picture of Blimey Bill now and assuming that it is one that belonged to the 24th L and not a "Blimey Bill" that another regiment had that they had also chosen to carry that name....

    Does there seem to be anything to suggest what date and where it was K'O'd?

    Even which crew (or casualties) it might particularly have had?

    Following the logic that "B" for Blimey meant "B" for "B" squadron is nice perhaps, but I know in the greater scheme of things we have to be a tiny bit cautious there. Any rules like the "four horsemen of the apocalypse" or the followers of Robin Hood (in the SRY HQ sqd) could apply.

    I'm not even 100% certain that every tank as such actually "had" a name. If they did I certainly wish that my grandfaher had chosen to call them as such.

    "The tank on my left" or "Spud's tank" or "Eric's" is a bit of a "knotted thread" now to unravel at best! I don't mind calling one of them "Spud's tank" or another one "Ben's" until I know better though - I guess?! It lacks "something" of the "poetic" though perhaps ;)

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
  20. norton 407545

    norton 407545 Well-Known Member

    Interesting stuff I like the dogs thread nice pictures.
    I believe my grandad tank was called Black Prince. Although I've never seen it actually stated but in the officers account in NHL four troop B Sqdn tanks bloody Mary, butcher Cumberland, black Prince Lt leathers accounts for "bloody Mary" and "butcher Cumberland" and at some point "The Ram". I've not got my copy of NHL to hand right now so I can't quote why I'm sure he was in Black Price but next weekend I will get my book back and I will post again.
     

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