Part of the Vatican archives dating from World War II will soon be available online... However, the 8,000 pages of documents will not feature any records on Pius XII, the controversial wartime pope who has long been accused of silence in the face of the Holocaust. ShalomLife - Vatican WW II Archives to go Online
Dillon & Wtd - At the risk of being sent to Coventry once more - I would ask you both to read the encyclical " Mit Brennender Sorge" - then come back here and tell me that the person who wrote this - not the person who signed it - was a Nazi - as Golda Meir - Albert Enstein - Rabbi Zolli of Rome and hundreds of European Rabbi's claimed that the subject was a "Righteous Gentile" and wanted to plant 850,000 trees to remember the Jews which Pius X11 saved from the Holocaust - until the KGB paid a German to write a bunch of lies - which many people still believe - including obviously - you two ! The main objector to Pius XII is the Jew who was adpoted by a German Catholic couple to save him from death - his name - Abraham Foxman - what does he do ? - he is the head man of the Bnai Brith's - Anti-Defamation League - check it out - we don't have to lie ! Cheers
Dillon & Wtd - At the risk of being sent to Coventry once more - I would ask you both to read the encyclical " Mit Brennender Sorge" - then come back here and tell me that the person who wrote this - not the person who signed it - was a Nazi - as Golda Meir - Albert Enstein - Rabbi Zolli of Rome and hundreds of European Rabbi's claimed that the subject was a "Righteous Gentile" and wanted to plant 850,000 trees to remember the Jews which Pius X11 saved from the Holocaust - until the KGB paid a German to write a bunch of lies - which many people still believe - including obviously - you two ! The main objector to Pius XII is the Jew who was adpoted by a German Catholic couple to save him from death - his name - Abraham Foxman - what does he do ? - he is the head man of the Bnai Brith's - Anti-Defamation League - check it out - we don't have to lie ! Cheers Tom, I would never send you to Coventry or Birmingham for that matter Dillon was mearly confused as to why the records relating to Pius were missing from the Vatican records and rightly so.As for me im just cynical I like to believe what I can see for myself so tell us why are these records missing? regards, Jason
WTD - The records of Pius XII papacy are still in the Archives of the Vatican - as you can see from Dillon's first thread they are releasing 8000 records shortly - now 8000 records are just not peanuts and have taken years to get into shape for publication. They are therefore the other records are not " missing".... The Archivist is not supported by a kind of staff such as the British Civil Service but rather a very small staff with millions of records to sort out - this takes time and he estimated at one point that it would take him another 15 years to get to Pius XII's records - since then - as I understand it - his staff has been increased and thus some are now available and those of Pius XII in appox 5 years from now. Many historians have had access to all records for many years including many jews - and it was from one of those "genuine" Historians that some records were filched or photographed by a Rumanian and handed to the KGB for "doctoring" which was the basis of the German's play - which turned many of the jewish religion to interfere - there is no other word for it - in the Catholic religion ! We do NOT interfere in theirs !!! Having met Pius XII - I have no qualms that when the records are finally published for ALL to see - He will be exonerated - but I would doubt that even then it will be accepted as they have made up their minds - and only a couple of 88mm shots through their heads will change anything . !!! Hopefully I will still be here when they are published - I love to see people squirm..... Cheers
The Vatican are notoriously secretive about their archives at the best of times, and thats just with the more mundane records that they have. Angels and Demons might have been a bit far fetched but Dan Brown did get that side of things right.
Mit brennender Sorge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Here's a link to it. It was read from the pulpit of Catholic Churches all over Germany in 1937.
WTD - I take it that you didn't bother to read the Encylical 'Mit Brenndender Sorge" otherwise you would have agreed that Pius XII - who wrote it as Pius XI was very ill at the time - was by no means a Nazi lover - in fact as he was Secretery of State as Cardinal Pacelli - he knew what was going on in Germany and tried to stop them - and contiued to do so during the war which followed this Encyclical of 1937 - in case you didn't find it - here it is.... Pius XI, Mit Brennender Sorge (14/03/1937)
WTD - I take it that you didn't bother to read the Encylical 'Mit Brenndender Sorge" otherwise you would have agreed that Pius XII - who wrote it as Pius XI was very ill at the time - was by no means a Nazi lover - in fact as he was Secretery of State as Cardinal Pacelli - he knew what was going on in Germany and tried to stop them - and contiued to do so during the war which followed this Encyclical of 1937 - in case you didn't find it - here it is.... Pius XI, Mit Brennender Sorge (14/03/1937) Tom, ah the old Catholic/Jewish debate reminds me of some fascinating discussions I had in the past with a Jehovah Witness as for the unreleased records and old Pius why are they just rereleasing records that are already avaliable, and yes I did read 'Mit Brenndender Sorge' does not for me completly explain things,I would be very intrested in what was in these files concerning the auctual war years.And I have aways found the church to be a bit like politicans.
... but Dan Brown did get that side of things right. Who? HahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA! Look, I have a bridge for sale, and at a pinch maybe a couple of Eiffel Towers! Dan Brown?
Who? HahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA! Slightly off topic, but do read The Da Vinci Code review here Language Log: The Dan Brown code
Ahhh Dan Brown. Surely is he not a genius? Must he not be great as Tony Robinson makes money from lightwight programmes about the renown author and linguo-gymanast? Blessed be his bank balance!
I can also claim to have not read any of his writings - and have no wish so to do..... Dan Brown is popular - and adored in some quarters mainly the media - and money making as he writes what is very popular - anti Christian trash and everyone seems to have similar thoughts to-day - not only the atheists but many of the so called members of the " Silent Apostasy" crowd or those who claim to live in the "Post Christian Era". No doubt one day they will find out that they might just- possibly - be wrong, but then what do I know i'm superstitious ! Cheers
I did read the da Vinci Code. Pursuing the principle that there are things that one has to do once in a lifetime - such as going on a roller coaster - these were some of the most wasted hours of my life, but as the book is so lightweight fortunately those hours were not too many. And as in the past I had read the book from which the theoretical core had been plagiarised from - object of a copyright breach trial won by the 'more expensive lawyer' judicial method - my work was even more abridged. Anyway, I like comedy books, and this was one albeit rather badly written.
I can also claim to have not read any of his writings - and have no wish so to do..... Dan Brown is popular - and adored in some quarters mainly the media - and money making as he writes what is very popular - anti Christian trash and everyone seems to have similar thoughts to-day - not only the atheists but many of the so called members of the " Silent Apostasy" crowd or those who claim to live in the "Post Christian Era". No doubt one day they will find out that they might just- possibly - be wrong, but then what do I know i'm superstitious ! Cheers Tom, if you have not read any of his opinions then how do you know they are trash? Or are you basing your opinions on what other people are saying to you................ interesting. Now on to this Anti-Catholicism position. Pius is seen as a very controversial figure and he was Damned if he did and damned if he didnt. A lot of people could have done more but chose not to or couldnt for various reasons. From 1943 the Pope was in a very precarious position, once the Germans occupied Rome. There are a lot of people who supported him and his actions during the war. But in my mind the Catholic Church could, as an institution, could have spoken out more, and I say that as a Catholic. I would like to point out at this point that I would also say that about the Protestant Churches of Europe. If the Pope is to take any blame then he's no worse than any other European Christian religious leaders, with the exception of the Head of the Church of England. You will of course have noted that I am referring to the Institution of Catholicism as opposed to the Pope himself. I'm not saying that there was no help afforded the Victims of persecution by the Catholic Church, there were plenty. But could they have done more, yes they could have. Couldnt everyone?
Someone else invoked the religious equivalent od 'Suvorov' and I followed up; we can open a separate thread if you want. The Catholic Church could do more? Certainly it could. Albeit for a very short time, for the moment they started opening their mouths too much the Jackboot would fall on them rather quickly. No compunction at all at sending men of the cloth to the concentration camp. Look at the Polish clergy. Look at the more well known Pastor Niemöller for an example, a Protestant and an NSDAP member who was slammed in Sachsenhausen and later Dachau. Everyone had to walk a very fine line or else.
I still think that vatican and a single pastor (e.g.) were quite another cup of tea. Considering what an influence the voice of the church had on the Euthanasieprogramm, taking clear position by the vatican/pope might have had a considerable impact.
whoah didnt realise a tangent-style mention of DB would arouse such emotions. know his books take a lorry load of salt, but FWIW I enjoy reading them. I try not to take them too seriously. Anyhoo, what I meant is he got it right that the Vatican are extremely protective of their archives, down to what they acknowledge exists, and who they allow to look at documents. That came across well in Angels and Demons I thought. And I thought the Holy See's overall policy on archives might be relevant.
