So it goes with the Church of Latter Day Saints, for an instance among many, go to Salt Lake City and ask them to let you take a peek at the John Smith gold tablets! And a work of fiction is what the label sez: fiction. You might as well have spoken the name of Sven Hassel for a good guide on WW2 history. It's exactly the same thing.
Gotthard et al – You are quite right of course – “how do I know that the Da Vinci Code is trash unless I read it ? – very easy actually I have the greatest admiration for the erudition and scholarship of PeterG as I have also had a very good friendship with him for many years despite our divergent beliefs – and so when I read his response to Za Rodini in message #11 – I knew that he also thought this to be true as he made no comment but merely pointed out a review of that book – otherwise we would have had three or four pages of defence of Dan Brown and all his works. – So hearsay – tough I know , I know…but ….. Now regarding the alleged silence of Pius XII particularly during the occupation of Rome – you as Catholic would understand that the possibility of capture or even assassination was uppermost but accepted as martyrdom – however I believe that the loss of leadership at that time would have been even more prevalent and not replaceable. At about the same time the Bishops of Holland were pleading for him to be silent as the Nazi’s were using his words to remove both Catholics and Jews to their infamous camps. The task of saving the recognised 850,000 Jews was then placed in other hands viz – Fr Flanagan of Assisi and the many convents throughout Italy and even inside the Vatican itself under the noses of the Germans. Rabbi Zolli, who was the Head Rabbi in Rome – and his family were also sheltered in the Vatican for many months – and to show his gratitude converted to the Catholic faith and adopted the pope’s name of Eugenio. Albert Einstein told of his experience that ONLY the Catholic church stood up to the nazi’s – Golda Meir praised and thanked Pius on his death as did hundreds of Rabbi’s from the Balkans – these were not stupid people who knew the facts of the thousands who were saved – Archbishop Roncalli – later Pope John XXIII signed thousands of “Baptismal” certificate showing that the holders were officially Catholics ! Alas all this knowledge has been swept away by many high ranking Jews as well as those who have their own axes to grind and I point the finger at one Abraham Foxman – the leader of the Anti-Defamation league for maintaining this hostility and interference in our Religion. Much more should and probably could have been done as I recall that the Askanazi Jews were great money lenders – whereas the Sephardist Jews were not so well off – why didn’t the Askanazi’s lend the Sephardists the money to escape Europe as they had ? Often wanted to ask that ! Much more could and should have been done by many in Germany as well as I recall that Pastor Niemoller said “ when they came for the dis-abled – I did nothing; when they came for the Jews – I did nothing; when they came for the Catholics – I did nothing; then they came for me “ Trouble is – we are all human Cheers
In a quite possibly doomed attempt to get this onto the track of the archives that will be released - where will this online source be? I was mildly amused to see there's a page on the Vatican website called: Vatican Secret Archives Is this the place to browse the WW2 records that will be made available? Anybody know if this will this be purely 'diplomatic' type stuff? Or more lower echelon reports from clergy 'on the ground' as well? Never having had any interest in Vatican records outside of the odd mention in the Fortean Times I've no real idea what they'll contain. ~A (And Dillon, if you wish to promote your website - as you seem to have posted this on a dozen other forums - we'd appreciate it if you were a little more overt in mentioning that the source you've posted twice on separate threads now is your own. We don't really appreciate 'link-farming' to sites that aren't primarily WW2 focused.)
Adam - as you may know many of the Vatican's Archives were written with a quill pen and it is only in the past five years that they have an actual web site so I suspect that they have couple of nerds working on the best way to introduce these archives - and then again the nerds might be octogenarians - so all we can do is await..... Had a few thoughts of Dillon's introducing such a thread - then walking away.... very odd ! just stirring ? Cheers
So it goes with the Church of Latter Day Saints, for an instance among many, go to Salt Lake City and ask them to let you take a peek at the John Smith gold tablets! Well, actually those were supposedly taken back by the Angel Moroni. What you want to ask to see are the papyrus that Joseph Smith pronounced were the work of Abraham himself, that they use in the canonical book, The Pearl of Great Price. It is actually a common funeral text called The Book of Breathings and his "God inspired" translation of that work is actually a big pile of horse hockey.
Perhaps this will be a place to start looking for the documents, right on the left, where the tin lid says Vatican Secret Archives... Don't tell them I'll wrote this, or I'll have an albino monk on my heels!
Perhaps this will be a place to start looking for the documents, right on the left, where the tin lid says Vatican Secret Archives... Don't tell them I'll wrote this, or I'll have an albino monk on my heels! I thought you were that Monk
Had a few thoughts of Dillon's introducing such a thread - then walking away.... very odd ! just stirring ? Cheers Seems to have been a news item with a WW2 interest, so not necessarily stirring. Anyway I see no serious bun-fights. Glad I followed the Dan brown link, I would never read a novel that started with 'Renowned', when, for the same price I can read one that starts with 'It' or 'There'. geoff
You can read it if you can adjust your mind to the "It was a dark and stormy night" type of parody If I could do that, it would be the best of times.
Joking apart, I did hate the book. After a lifetime of reading great mistery prose, this was a sacrifice just to keep current and having just cause to be able to wallop it next time it came up in conversation. And walloped it was, mightily and frequently. Never had the gut to see the movie, reading the book was suffering enough. As for the religious controversy around it, there was the plagiarism accusation laid by the authors of a previous book so the idea apparently isn't new. Apparently, say I, because the courts decided there was no plagiarism at all, as I previously said after a trial where the more expensive legal help counted. It's nevertheless curious that the names of the authors of the alleged plagiarised book do show up reused in anagrammatic form, again 'allegedly'... But it was a fine recipe, despite the turgid prose, despite the scandalous innacuracies. It sold. Lastly, as for fundament, this is a work of fiction. The word "fiction" comes from the Latin "fictio", meaning something artificial, made up. And that's what it was: something made up tailored to please a public and to include enough graphical highlights to please a screenwriter.
would the book you are alegedly alluding to be "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail"? I gave up part way through even though it was (allegedly) written by two BBC religious affars reporters/reserchers who uncovered the story a good few years before they wrote the book.
Yes, thick as slurry, and a tightwalk act between the unlikely and the absurd. "Uncovered the story"? More accurately "invented the story".
To paraphrase the baddies in Scooby Do.. "We'd have set up a global dynasty based on the offspring of Christ if it hadn't have been for those pesky freemasons!" Was there anything particulaly WW2 related in the book?
Just wondering as the thread was about vatican archives in WW2 and seems to have "slipped" a little!.. Not that I'm complaining Fancy starting an "I hate Dan Brown" thread tomorrow, or have we exhausted this one
Geoff 501 My thought that Dillon was just stirring it up was the fact that his "news item" came from a specialist source and not a general media subject - I thought it very odd - especially when he apparently "tried it on" with other forums - according to VP- and didn't return - at least to date to back up his news item- check out his source ! Cheers
I would be very surprised if there are any revelations that appear from the Vatican archive regarding WW2. It was not certain that the Germans would honour the Neutrality of the Vatican and as such any documents that were anti Nazi/German would inevitably have been used against the vatican if it was occupied and the documents siezed. This is just my own personal view of course, but looking at it in the cold light of day, it makes sense unless there was a policy to destroy records in case of occupation. Food for thought. Regards Tom
Smudger - The last thing that would happen to any archives in the Vatican would be destruction - many records have been there for centuries -and will remain there for a long as we have the main point of this particular thread was and still is the continual- ongoing - non stop - interfering - bitching by a certain group who insist on having their way in the Vatican bending over backwards to please them in their quest to denigrate a man who was termed " A Righteous Gentile" by their predecessors. As many do not - or want to know - Pius XII felt that the Nazi lifeline was in the region of 20 years ONLY - bad as it was and in that he was correct.1933 - 45 ! he also felt the MAIN danger to the whole world was the spread of Communisim 1917 - ? which again he was proven to be correct as he said around 1938 - " I am concerned that Our Holy Mother at Fatima( apparitions of 1917) - stresses the spread of Communism throughout the world and we must pray that we can convert Russia to gain a lasting peace" The recent signing of the Lisbon Treaty smells like communism to me..... Cheers
