Michel Sabarly submitted a new resource: Landing Table - 3 British Infantry Division Group (First Tide) - SWORD Landing Table First Tide - March 1944 Read more about this resource...
Michel Sabarly updated Landing Table - 3 British Infantry Division Group (First Tide) with a new update entry: v3.0 Read the rest of this update entry...
Hi Michel. Thank you for this magnificent piece of work. On the updated version there are far more pennant numbers so it is possible to identify all of 47 LCT flotilla (13 craft) starting at Line 1624 of the spreadsheet. My father in law served in that flotilla but as he is long dead and never spoke about the war, I cannot ask him what transpired. From the Green books his LCT (Pennant 828) was Cat C (needing repair) on 5.6.44 as was LCT 900. Not surprisingly these two LCTs are absent from the Landing Table. I have some question that I hope you can answer: 1) if the Landing table was dated March 1944 how did they know that these two LCTs, which were fine at that time, would be out of action on D-day? Or is the March date misleading and this is the final D-day list? 2) As the contents of each Serial was pre-configured to enable the creation of Loading Tables, how did they deal with LCTs that were, at the last minute, out of action? Did they have spare LCTs with or without crew? Many thanks. Ian
Welcome to the forum Ian! The LTIN/Serial system was used precisely to address the issues you raise. A ship or craft Serial represents a notional vessel of a given type, so that in case of last minute unavailability, the actual ship/craft alloted this Serial could be changed without affecting the Landing Table. Yes, there were spare LCT (and other types as well), with crew. In the event there were more spare vessels than planned because actual availability was much higher than expected. LCT(4) 828 is a good example. On IWM H38273 shot on 6 May 44 during Exercise Fabius, it appears she was carrying LTIN 409, which on D Day was carried by LCT(4) 1017 of the same Flotilla: The Landing Table does not include the pennant numbers. I added those I could find as a bonus, using a variety of means and sources. See Sheet 'Verbatim' for the (hopefully) exact transcription of the Landing Table (except the first two columns which I added). Michel
Hi. Thank you for a great reply. Especially the picture as LCT 828 was Cat A until the very end of May (Green books) so this is likely to be Frank Garwood (my father in law) participating in this practice exercise. My concern is that 828 and 900 do not show up in the Landing Table even though they were both Cat A in 47 Flotilla on 28/3/44. Unfortunately I did not copy every weekly entry in the Green books for March which is the month that saw the move of 828 from 42nd to 47th Flotilla. So, if 828 was out of service on 6th June what would have happened to the Officers and crew? Ian
I think I have not been clear enough in my response. Assignment of pennant numbers to Serials was not made at the time the initial Landing Tables or their subsequent versions or amendments were published. This assignment was a separate matter altogether, made by different people from those who wrote the Landing Table and at a much later date. Again, no pennant number appeared in Landing Tables, only LTINs/Serials. The ones that appear in this Excel file were added by me, and are the actual ones on D Day (as explained in the "Guide" sheet, which should be read first, as suggested in the Overview of this Resource) and not on the date of the Landing Table, when they were not assigned yet. They were simply waiting for their craft to become operational again (and probably working at it too!). Michel
Hi. That was very clear. It was just me taking a while to absorb the implication. Is the image from Fabius the free low-res version or the high-res (paid for) version?
It's the free one, further downgraded when posting it here owing to the size limits. Rather than buying a digital copy, however high the resolution is claimed to be, I would advise you to try and get a large analogue print (i.e. printed on photographic paper directly from the negative, the way it used be before digitalisation) that you will then be able to scan at any resolution you like. Be also aware that IWM FL7101 does not show LCT(4) 828 as it claims. The type/version does not match that of 828 (stairs on the wrong side, for example). Michel
Thanks for good advice again. Has anyone done the same exercise for Landing tables for subsequent tides (I doubt it given the scale of the task)? With great admiration and thanks. Ian
Hi again. I now need to eliminate the possibility that the officers and crew of LCT 828 were transferred to LCT 832 for D-day. There is writing on the back of a photo that might suggest they had a connection with that LCT. Do you have anything on 832? For example did it participate in Fabius? Did it have a LTIN? Does it feature in the Loading or Landing tables? Etc.
Ian, On D Day LCT 832 (OC Sub-Lieutenant S.W. Cheek, R.N.V.R.), like all her companions in "Q" LCT Squadron, was assigned to (US) Follow-up Force "B". Why don't you say what you are looking for and show us what you have? That would save us from wasting our efforts and might bring you the answers you are after.
The Report of "Q" LCT Squadron for Op OVERLORD (83 pages) is linked here, and LCT 832's First Lieutenant is mentioned in the following post. Michel
The D-Day Story Collection This link takes you to an image in the D-Day story collection. It has the caption: A note on the rear states this is the crew of LCT(6) 1277 (this craft was launched in September 1944). Also noted are details of LCT 832 commissioning and paying off dates and duties on D Day, but no further information for LCT 1277. Part of the archive of the LST and Landing Craft Association. I have asked for a picture of the back of that photo and any index card data about origin but none received. I will have to go to Portsmouth I think. My wife has the same photo in her family album along with the one I just uploaded (below). You can see some of the same people as the previous photo but now plus Frank Garwood. Also in the family album are photos of two LCTs 828 and 1277. We have no oral history at all. Frank's service record assigns him to Cobra from Sept '43 to March'46 so I made weekly photos of the Green Books between those dates for both those LCTs and for LCT 832 around D-day. I also found the Officers reports for T Squadron (47 flotilla) for D-day and photographed them. With your help I think I am clear that although LCT 828 was active (including having a LTIN at Op Fabius). It broke down and was Cat C from 29/5 to an unknown date after D-day, in June. It then joined the shuttle. I have all I need on the subsequent history of 828. My assumption is that the crew of 828 transferred to 1277 when it was commissioned. I have all the green book entries for 1277. So, the only puzzle remaining is with regard to the note on the back of the photo above re LCT 832. Was it a 'spare' of some sort and how (if at all) might it relate to the story of Frank and his shipmates? If you would like me to post images of any of my Kew research please specify. Happy to help. Ian
Hi Ian, Thank you for the explanations and further details. Things are much clearer now. As often, there is a mix-up between (British) LCT(4) and (US) LCT(6). LCT(6) 1277 was indeed launched in Sept 44, but from what you are saying the photo is actually about LCT(4) 1277, which AFAIK was launched on 13 Mar 45. Your posting the photos you have of 828 and 1277 would help clarify this. If I understand correctly, based on the various photos you are assuming that Frank Garwood was at some time part of the crew of LCT 1277, probably also LCT 828 and possiby LCT 832? I suspect it might be more productive if you started a (unique) thread with his complete name and official number in the title, possibly in the The War At Sea forum, or in Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy (but not both), and posting every fact you have (Service Record, photos or links thereto, ...) plus a summary of how you arrived at whatever conclusions you may have reached so far. This might attract more interest than if posted in this somewhat remote location within the forum, in a post dedicated to Landing Tables rather than to a specific individual. By the way, the link to the photo you posted is Dad's Navy Friends 2 | WW2Talk Michel
Hi. I have not done a good job on uploading the pictures of the two LCTs in the family album but at least you can now see them. As LCT 1277 first appears in the Green books in April 1945 I agree with you that it can only be the RN one. I take your point about starting a new thread but first want to see the back of that photo held by D-day story. I read the write up of Flotilla Q and am now of the view that there is no likelihood of the crew of 828 (including Frank) having been on that craft in June '44. Thanks for helping me close that dead end.
Ian, Thanks for posting the photos. That of LCT 828 was obviously shot after H38273, i.e. after 6 May 44, because she is wearing her Invasion colours, with the Force S green stripe around her bridge and the 3 British Infantry Division sign on the front of her bridge. This means she was indeed intended to take part in the early stages of the Invasion, and might have, if she was repaired on time. LCT 1277 on the other hand is brand new, with the roof over the bridge which I believe is characteristic of craft modified for Far East service. See IWM A29889 showing LCT(3) modified in a similar way. PM coming your way. Michel
Thanks for the brilliant detail based on years of study. Very much appreciated. One follow up question. You had ascertained that the LTIN visible in the photo of 828 at Fabius had transferred to another LCT according to the Landing Tables for D-day? So, where would LCT 828, if repaired on time, then get its loading/landing instructions?
Yes, on D Day LCT 828 definitely was not part of the Group she was part of during FABIUS. Whether she was repaired on time for D Day or at a later date, 828 would either have been allotted to any authority who needed a spare, additional or replacement LCT or left in stand by as reserve.
