KSLI D-day 6/7 June 1944 is there a complete list of killed/died/missing

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by HarryClarke, May 23, 2020.

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  1. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    Hello there Kyle, I hope you're well.
    Thank you for pointing out that the quote isn't relevant to this new search, it saves a lot of time and effort :) It was a comment I caught while just quickly scanning this forum. It's fine that it's not useful. I can rule it out.

    Sadly I haven't been allowed to get going with this topic, people jumped in at the beginning with all sorts of untrue assumptions, I've been called muddled, disorganised and bizarre, and it's ended up with a man insulting my education. Horrible thing.

    All I was trying to find out, is if there are any lists of KSLI missing. It's a completely sane question and I didn't know the answer, so I asked in the normal way.

    I'm sorry people don't like me being educated. I come from a poor family. My Dad was unemployed. I've spent my life trying to learn things and improve my situation. Unfortunately some people on here have a very loud mouth and they use it, which definitely hurts.

    Sending love. :)
  2. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    Hi Tom, yes I have had some lovely exchanges with people on here. I've also read loads of other threads where people work together in a friendly way and get results. I just wish I could be given a chance, instead of being attacked.

    Asking questions is what I have to do, to collect information. And there are many ways of asking questions. Lawyers do it, police do it, journalists do it, biographers have to ask all sorts of things. And of course there are techniques, just like there are proven ways of scoring goals in football. As far as I'm concerned, any way of asking questions is OK as long as it respects and is kind to the person you're asking. I'm sure you wouldn't disagree with that.

    Perhaps I'm a different sort of person from those who usually post on here. Perhaps I write in a different way. That's fine. It takes all sorts.

    But I won't tolerate being criticised for my level of education. That's out of order.

    How can we get this request back on track. I didn't derail it.

  3. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    Try again to get this back on track - you seem annoyed that you have asked a question and it hasn't been answered - in the first reply to your question Diane answered it, so going back to that may help get things going in the right direction as it was a helpful, polite and appropriate reply.

    You think Diane's reply was incomplete, can you tell us why you believe its incomplete? were you expecting to see a certain person? or more likely based on some of the other posts I think it looks like you were expecting to see names on memorials rather than graves (so bodies not recovered/recognised) - seeing some of the reasoning behind you questioning the answer (and its valid to question answers if you have reason to doubt) - also some general context for the question as it is very loose , is it helping a relative of a casualty, an interest sparked from a comment you heard in passing, a note you read in a book etc - something must have prompted the question and knowing the context can help people get the answer
  4. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    AB64, good morning.
    I'm not annoyed that my question hasn't been answered. I don't expect people to know things. Sometimes you have to ask for years, before you find the key in the lock. I'm a peaceful and patient person.

    Diane's reply was brilliant. She contributes a great deal to this site, as do many others. Her reply wasn't incomplete. The records themselves are incomplete, in the sense that they're not 100% accurate.

    You ask for context. Great. I am a seeker of missing people, both dead and alive. It's detective work. It's a humanitarian pursuit. It pleases me to do it and it helps other people. Families can go crazy, not knowing what happened to a loved one. They need to be able to grieve, and to understand, and to have closure. If you can find an actual grave, that really, really helps.

    I get results. That's why I carry on.

    I've found that the best way to approach a search is to ask small-scale questions, and to gradually build up the picture and the 'case' with solid things. If it feels like deliberate 'drip-feed', it isn't. Difficult mysteries have to be solved bit by bit.

    Members here need to accept that records, even army records, can contain errors. I know they do. I've seen so many errors. So I usually begin with the records, to see if there could be an error somewhere. There often is.

    I'm searching for information regarding a soldier from KSLI ["Shropshire Rifles"], or at least that's the unit he was believed to serve in (but as we saw with the last search, he may not have been in it when he met his fate). Again I'm working from notes. I trust the notes. The last search was successful when we worked out what was wrong.

    I have more details to give, but I prefer to start by looking at the records, which is why I asked this forum where they might be. And you kindly told me.
    Does that help you understand a little better?
  5. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    It doesn't really help - OK so Diane's reply was right records are wrong, but why do you think the records are wrong?

    And the context is very open (like the question) - not a general why do you ask, a specific in this case why do you ask, what is the prompt.

    If you have more info why not share it, with relevant caveats if you are unsure of details - holding back makes it harder for people to answer - asking questions bit by bit may be why it can takes years to get an answer - better just put it all on the table and let people work out what's relevant - if you have more connected questions that you will ask later it may be those have a bearing on the answer to this

    In terms of the last search, what was wrong were the details you provided, not anything on the official records, I'm not sure I see the same success on that one that you do
    4jonboy, dbf and Tom OBrien like this.
  6. Hello Harry,

    Thank you for explaining your research method. This helps lot in understanding how... misunderstandings arose between you and about every poster (including me) in this thead.

    Here is what I think: your method of asking questions, as explained in your latest post and displayed in this and your other thread, might be the very source of the misunderstandings. If I get you correctly, you deliberately withold part of the information you have on what you are researching, and ask sideways questions instead of stating directly what you are looking for. This in my view is neither respecful of nor kind to the person(s) you are asking your questions to. It results in members wasting much time and energy trying to respond secondary or even irrelevant matters, instead of concentrating on the main issue. It also smells of lack of trust on your part of the sincerity of the other members here.

    I know that this is not what you intended, but it is nevertheless what this method results in, for me at least.

    I cannot claim to speak for anyone but myself, but my view of this forum is the following. As you might have gathered when browsing the many many fantastic threads in this forum, we always thrive to get beyond the surface of things and try to get to the actual historical truth, whatever that means, whatever it takes, and whatever we may find. And more often than not, questions raised here get answered, sometimes very quickly, sometimes litterally years after they were first asked, and after hundreds of posts from dozens of members, each adding their contribution, small or large, to the solution, and in the process raising more questions and answering unasked ones. Heated debate is not absent from some of such threads, but only very seldom does it derive into nasty attacks, which are then promptly halted by our otherwise very benevolent mods.

    As a conclusion, I believe that your so called "detective" of "law enforcement" methods of asking questions are not just disrespectful but counter-productive on this forum, and a waste of other members' sincere efforts trying to help you. As stated by AB64 above, you will get more and better results if you simply told us what you have and what you look for, instead of beating around the bush.

    As for me, I will stop wasting my time until you are ready to expose what you actually want to know and what information you already have, and are ready to have it questioned the same way you are prepared to question our answers.

    Last edited: May 24, 2020
    Stuart Avery, 4jonboy, dbf and 2 others like this.
  7. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    Hello Michel, thank you for your frank and int
    Hello Michel, thank you for your frank and interesting comments.

    I don't wish to place the blame on anyone in particular, however I do believe that the source of the confusion stems from what I was told by an existing forum member, before I posted my first question. (I didn't know this site existed. I had to be directed here by someone else.)

    I was told that you could ask specific questions on ww2talk and you would get very specific answers. Therefore you could ask for e.g. the location of a set of records, and (if possible) you would be told the location of those records. Full-stop. That was it. You didn't need to go any further. Nobody expected anything more.
    I had no understanding that the members here want or need to be given 'the full picture' at the outset, and in all its uncertainty, so that they can discuss it and question it and tear it to pieces if necessary (which is all part of developing a useful theory). So you have a particular way of working on here, which I was not told and could not possibly know. Other forums are different; you can ask a single, simple question and that's the end of the matter and everyone's happy.

    I thoroughly welcome heated debate, however I've been rather frightened on here by the comments of Jon Heyworth which are outside my experience in terms of their content and coarseness of expression.

    I think it's great that your members want to assist, in energetic ways, to try to solve a mystery. Teamwork very often brings results.

    My choice not to expose everything to public view results from uncomfortable prior experience, where people (families, relatives) have been bitterly disappointed when something can't be solved: their hopes are dashed, they get terribly upset and sometimes angry. So I work quietly, privately, carefully, and in very small stages.

    It may be that my research methods are not compatible with the requirements of your members here. That's OK! I don't mind. If you can bear with me and help me in small stages, that would be good. If not, then I will happily seek help elsewhere.

    Good wishes, and thank you for giving me a proper insight into ww2talk, Harry
  8. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member


    AB64, I have responded to Michel's post which arrived at much the same time as your own, and I think it covers most of your comments here.

    The previous search took years in other ways; the finalising of the name (which I brought to this forum) was the very last process. And yes, I am only as good as the details I have, and I make errors too.

  9. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    Listen Harry,

    i was not the brightest spark in the classroom when i was at school. It looks has if you have carried it on in later life & got what ever piece's of papers you have. I do take my hat off to you. FOR GOD SAKE: YOU ARE AT IT AGAIN. Please Sir, it was not me & (I did not derail it!) If you did not, then who did derail it? You are out of order. How the hell of you been attack? Please do gives a clue.

    You may well be aware of the files below? It is rather cheap. You should be able to obtain a copy. I'm not saying that it will give a 100% answer. Something else to have a read of when you get the time.
    1. (2).jpg
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    3. (2).jpg

    That's it from me.

  10. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    I don't think much has been covered, still no idea the reason for asking the question (I accept you don't need to justify a question but context helps), no idea why you think the list given is incomplete, and no reply to Owens (any my) question of why you believe this thread was nearly banned.

    If a soldier who gave his life has been missed from records I'm 100% sure everyone on this forum will do all they can to get them the credit they deserve.
  11. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    Hey Stu, that looks a fantastic book and I will find it today and buy it. Thanks for showing it to me, that's a great help.

    I'm wondering if you're in the USA? If so, I reckon you guys use a different kind of language from me, and it comes over as aggressive, when it's not meant to. That's the trouble with having to write all these words to each other. If we were eye to eye, in the same room, I think we'd understand each other a lot better.

    I appreciate the link to the book. I will read it. Thank you.
  12. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    AB64 you're lovely, you really care, don't you.

    I asked the question because I want to look at the KSLI records myself, in my own time. I want to see what they contain. When I'd looked at them, I'd planned to come back here and ask further questions, to progress the search.

    I'm undertaking a search, using another man's notes, because there's a mystery surrounding a WW2 soldier who can't be readily found.

    I've received communications from folks (outside this public part of the forum) who suggested that my previous request was too hazy and not suitable and the question needed to be changed or removed. I had no idea why this should be, but maybe Michel's explanation of how this forum works gives us a better clue.

    I agree, any soldier who gave his life should be commemorated and thanked in an appropriate way. Which is why I search.

  13. Stuart Avery

    Stuart Avery In my wagon & not a muleteer.

    I live in Darwen, Lancashire, England. I will say this on my behalf. At times you have come across as being arrogant. Not sure if i need to say anymore. If you wish to carry-on with this thread, then so be it? No point you running away with your tail between your legs.

    Sorry if that is a different kind of language. If i were to eye to eye, in the same room, then i would say that. I'm one of those who believe that if many people say that I'm out of order, then I have to hold-up my hand. You may be reading far to much into that us chaps are being aggressive? Good luck in your research. This board is not Twitter, or F-book.


  14. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    Hello Stu, thanks for telling me where you live.

    I put my qualifications online because people were asking if I had thoroughly checked my material. I was called disorganised. Muddled. So I needed to show that I have a background in academic research, which is true. To do research, and to be a writer, and to write and publish books, you have to be very organised and dedicated and have a very good level of English. This all applies to me. I'm not bragging. I'm stating facts.

    People asked how I believed there are mistakes in the records. So I explained that I have consulted millions of records over my long lifetime, and I have found quite a few errors in the records I've read, which is also true.

    If you look at Jon Heyworth's comments, which really frightened me, I would say that they perhaps belong on Twitter, and not on a civilised discussion forum, which is what I was told this was.

    I'm polite, educated, kind, sympathetic and I'm known as a very good communicator. I've written 14 books, like the ones you showed me. I don't apologise for being able. I've worked hard for it, starting from nothing. I'm sorry if you don't like me saying this in public. But I'm only telling the truth.

    We all need to find a way to get along together, given that we all have different backgrounds and attitudes to life. Live and let live, that's my motto. What's yours, Stu?

  15. You were given this answer right after you asked. If that is all you wanted, why add a comment, apparently inviting further discussion into your view of the completeness or not of the very records you were looking for? See your response below:

    Regarding the respective merits of the research method you advocate versus the one I am suggesting you use here, your own words in your other thread will I believe demonstrate which one is the more effective:
    It took you several years not to find your answer, but a mere week to find it once you asked on this forum, but only after you finally provided, after much prompting, all the information you had on hand.

    My post was not about a nonexistent required ww2talk enquiry format, but about how to make your request effective here. We did answer your initial questions, and then tried to address the reservations you expressed, even before reading them, about the records you asked for.

    As for for relatives of researched persons getting disappointed, upset and/or angry, my experience is that when it occurs, it comes not from a lack of results from the research they asked for, but rather when the research uncovered an altogether different actual story from what family lore had led them to expect, i.e. they just couldn't take the hard facts.

    Finally, I do not see anywhere on this thread anyone attacking you on your gender, education, intelligence, command of the English language or anything of the sort, therefore no justification from you is warranted or useful. If you care to quote precisely which post(s) caused you to believe you were being challenged in such a way, no doubt we could clear the air in this respect.
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  16. HarryClarke

    HarryClarke Active Member

    Michel, I approve of clearing the air and so I will choose just 3 examples of why I'm upset with what has been written to me on here by other members.

    1. TomOBrien accused me of 'playing games'. I find that offensive, because it's untrue and makes me seem manipulative and dishonest, which I am not. However I feel that Tom is a very decent individual and I'm prepared to accept there was a misunderstanding here.

    2. AB64 said of me: 'you do seem to like playing the victim on here'. I find that deeply offensive. I'd like this member to say sorry for that comment.

    3. Jon Heyworth told me I was trying to prove I'm much cleverer than the CWGC and the Army. In my opinion that's a hateful comment and I require a full apology for this member's words.

    It's up to you, Michel, to decide how to handle my requests for reparation.

    If amends are not made here in writing, I will find out how to make an official complaint.

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