II SS Panzer Corps

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by airborne medic, Aug 4, 2008.

  1. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    After just watching a few scenes from A Bridge too Far last night I was wondering about why Arnhem was picked for a refit for the II SS Panzer Corps.....or was it just like the film a relatively large town with reasonable links to Germany and a fair way behind the front line and a quiet sector?????

    Any thoughts anyone???
     
  2. sapper

    sapper WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    If ever there was a film designed to anger the real Market Garden vets? it is this!
    It is pure BULL and had very little connection with the truth.

    it certainly annoys old vet. Some of it is downright insulting to our men.
    Sapper
     
  3. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Well the film not withstanding, I believe that the 9th and 10th SS divisions were sent to Arnhem as it was a "quiet" sector. It was most unfortunate but it should also be stressed that the Allies did not jump right on top of a full strength SS PanzerKorps, 9th and 10th SS were nowhere near their full complement of troops or vehicles.
     
  4. GPRegt

    GPRegt Senior Member

    If ever there was a film designed to anger the real Market Garden vets? it is this!
    It is pure BULL and had very little connection with the truth.

    it certainly annoys old vet. Some of it is downright insulting to our men.
    Sapper


    I'm afraid I'm the voice of disagreement. I think William Goldman did a pretty good job in compressing a book, which covered nine days fighting, into a (basically) three-hour film. Yes, there was some licence: examples are composite characters - Maj Harry Carlyle's was a mix of Majs Digby Tatham-Warter ('A' Coy and who carried an umbrella), Doug Crawley 'B' and Victor Dover 'C'; name changes - Maj Fuller, who broke the news of the Panzers to Browning was, in reality, Maj Brian Urquhart (presumably not to confuse the audience with having two Urquharts to manage!). The CO of 506th PIR was Col Robert Sink, but in the film he was Col Stout.

    Goldman gave a solid overview of three of the main parts of the operation: landings, XXX Corps' breakout, stalemate at the bridge. Vignettes like 'Myrtle' the parachick are true and the incidents of S/Sgt Eddie Dohun and his Captain and Maj Julian Cook reciting the 'Hail, Mary' as he crossed the river at Nijmegen are also true. I appreciate that the fighting in and around Oosterbeek, amongst other sections, was not covered, but this was a cinema film not a TV mini-series (something I would very much like made).

    My father-in-law, who was an ALO with XXX Corps and was interviewed by Ryan, enjoyed the film. He thought it was a fair representation.

    Steve W.
     
  5. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    Steve,
    Agree with you and it's a shame that a serious question was tried to be hijacked into a debate of the accuracy of a film......the story of Kate ter Horst's house, having spoken to people who were both there as a medic and wounded is pretty accurate.....

    Just one of those unfortunate incidents of war that they were moved to a perceived quiet area.....

    See you soon......
     
  6. GPRegt

    GPRegt Senior Member

    Niall,

    I was going to give you the answer to your question but I felt I must answer the points made about the film. Sorry to have continued the hijacking of your thread.

    Steve W.
     
  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    It would appear that we are discussing the version of " A Bridge Too Far" - for British audiences....then I would advise you to get a copy of the American version - it's a hoot - with the Guards being denigrated as cowards etc and not willing to move until after tea - without Infantry was not a problem.....they were way too slow to go anywhere in a hurry - typical Monty stunt ....I would therefore agree with Sapper .....

    The biggest laugh is near the end when the main characters i.e Lt Gens. Horrocks and Browning in company of Lt Col. Joe Van DeLour of the Irish Guards( what was he doing there ?) on the Church Tower - are "ordered" by an American MAJOR General (sic) of their paratroops to " get them out" - that always cracks me up - but most American lap it up as being only right and proper !

    But then - there are more of them to pay for the film !
    Cheers
     
  8. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    It would appear that we are discussing the version of " A Bridge Too Far" - for British audiences....then I would advise you to get a copy of the American version - it's a hoot - with the Guards being denigrated as cowards etc and not willing to move until after tea - without Infantry was not a problem.....they were way too slow to go anywhere in a hurry - typical Monty stunt ....I would therefore agree with Sapper .....

    The biggest laugh is near the end when the main characters i.e Lt Gens. Horrocks and Browning in company of Lt Col. Joe Van DeLour of the Irish Guards( what was he doing there ?) on the Church Tower - are "ordered" by an American MAJOR General (sic) of their paratroops to " get them out" - that always cracks me up - but most American lap it up as being only right and proper !

    But then - there are more of them to pay for the film !
    Cheers
    Can we please get back on topic? Please read the first post - Airborne Medic wanted to know why 2 SS Panzer Corps were stationed near Arnhem. Whilst the film was mentioned it is not a thread about the film.
     
  9. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I haven't read the book but if "It Nevers Snows In September" is the German view of OMG, doesn't it mention why in there?
     
  10. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    I haven't read the book but if "It Nevers Snows In September" is the German view of OMG, doesn't it mention why in there?
    I don't remember fully if it did or not, Owen, but I am leaning toward no.
     
  11. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    Gotthard,

    Many thanks for your words!

    I can't recall a reason being found in the Kershaw book.......
     
  12. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    That excellent 'Defending Arnhem' site has an upcoming area, sadly 'under construction', relating to "The German Situation in Holland during September 1944".
    Defending Arnhem © 2007
    It's empty at the moment but might be worth keeping an eye on for more info on the specific question.
     
  13. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    Von Poop.....thanks aware of this site and under my real name I'm credited with helping constructing this site......
     
  14. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    :D
    As I wrote that I had this strange feeling you were going to say something like that :unsure:.

    Top site anyway.
     
  15. airborne medic

    airborne medic Very Senior Member

    I'm due to meet Scott this year too!
     
  16. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Gotthard -
    Little use you selecting me to remind all that we have wandered off topic - have a look at # 2 and 4 - the question was tenuous at best inasmuch as I doiubt it was Hitler - Keitel - Rundstedt - Blumentritt - Model or Bitterich - more than likely some low down Colonel staff wallah who was asked to "look into it "

    Regarding a full strength Tank Corps -or with only Two Tank battalions didn't have to be - ONE squadron of Panthers / Tigers could have held off any spread out lightly armed Para Div. in defending the only Bridge still standing - don't you think ?
    Cheers
     
  17. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Gotthard -
    Little use you selecting me to remind all that we have wandered off topic - have a look at # 2 and 4 - the question was tenuous at best inasmuch as I doiubt it was Hitler - Keitel - Rundstedt - Blumentritt - Model or Bitterich - more than likely some low down Colonel staff wallah who was asked to "look into it "

    Regarding a full strength Tank Corps -or with only Two Tank battalions didn't have to be - ONE squadron of Panthers / Tigers could have held off any spread out lightly armed Para Div. in defending the only Bridge still standing - don't you think ?
    Cheers
    Tom in relation to me selecting you, it was the most recent off-topic post, no more than that.

    I think the second part of your quote is a bit simplistic dont you think? You have the benefit of experience that I dont but 1 squadron of Panthers/Tigers in an urban environment might encounter a bit of trouble dont you think? Travelling in narrow streets might be a bit of an issue.

    Here is a link to a webpage with a fairly extensive history of the SS division "Hohenstaufen" which faced the Paras at Arnhem. The site is apolitical as far as I know:
    WWW.WAFFEN-SS.NO "9. SS-Panzer-Division Hohenstaufen"
     
  18. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Gotthard -
    accept your reasoning about being nearest post on off topic - however as you say - you do not have the experience in Tank warfare as others do - I shall expand on my "simplistic" idea -
    When Pte "Smokey" Smith of the Canadian Seaforths killed off one Panther with a PIAT - he forced another into a ditch - the crew bailed out recognising that life was preferable to Valour - and another one retreated - "Smokey"
    was awarded the V.C. for his Valour - quite rightly as we all agreed as it was raining very heavily at the time !
    The following morning the ditched Panther was duly recovered - checked - cleaned up - and presented to my "A" squadron of Churchill tanks of the 145th RAC which was a part of 21st Tank Bde supporting the Canadian 1st Division in Italy.
    We then utilised this Panther in shooting up it's makers - much to their disgust - my friend Walter Pollard was the gunner - who sadly died after stepping on a schhu mine while re fuelling this Tank.
    The biggest problem with any Panther is that it is quite wide in the beam and crossing a Bailey bridge has less than a two inch clearance - which makes this action a real pain in the - er - ankle!
    The Bridge at Ahrnem - I am led to believe - is almost a four lane highway and thus getting just a squadron of them over that bridge in order to set up a barrier to anyone trying to cross it - would be very simplistic indeed - as we in our turn did at the three bridges over the Muese with 31st Tank bde during the Battle of the Bulge - no one crossed those bridges !
    Cheers
     
    von Poop likes this.
  19. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Cheers for the response Tom and thanks for that info.

    Now as to who ordered SS Panzer Corps to Arnhem check out this from a Hohenstaufen history article:

    The 9th Waffen-SS Panzer Division had fought continuously and without replacements in Normandy since its arrival there in late June until its withdrawal on August 21. The divisional commander, SS Oberfuhrer Sylvester Stadler, who had taken over upon Bittrich's promotion on June 28 to command the II SS Panzer Corps, was wounded in late July, and being left behind in a hospital was temporarily replaced by SS Oberfuhrer und Oberst der Schutzpolizei, Friedrich Wilhelm Bock. Commander of the 6th Panzer Army, Field Marshall Walther Model, of Army Group B, ordered the division northwards to join him in Holland on September 3 for rest and refit. The division arrived at the Veluwe area north of Arnhem on September 7.
    It would appear that it was Model who ordered them to Holland.
     
    von Poop likes this.
  20. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Gotthard -
    so it was all Model's fault-the Rotter !
     

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