About Eichmann

Discussion in 'The Third Reich' started by Goe, Nov 13, 2021.

  1. Goe

    Goe Member

    Good morning:

    I would like to see documentaries about Adolf Eichmann that are realistic and not sensationalist. By this I mean that I recently saw one that said he was very anti-Semitic, sadistic, etc., which seemed to me to go against what Hannah Arendt, whom I consider to be the most reliable source, said (of course I am only a fan of these subjects, you can disagree with me on what I say). Although I mainly ask for documentaries, any other source will do.

    Finally, a question: in the film "operation finale", once Eichmann is kidnapped, he starts to act like a peaceful and nice man in front of his kidnappers, but when they are drugging him to get him out, he starts to use violent language and to make an apology for his crimes. I would like to know if this really happened, but I have not found any reference to this anecdote on Google. Best regards
     
  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    are you an anti semite ?


    do not try silly games
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2021
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  3. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    About Eichman ? The last few milliseconds of the drop was the best about Eichman
     
  4. Goe

    Goe Member

    What? I don't understand why do you suspect I am anti semite since I have said I trust Hannah Arendt and she was a jew woman. I have not denied or questioned Holocaust and I havent quoted David Irving (or any similar author) as a source.

    I only want to learn, and suspecting I am antisemite has no sense by reading this thread, and is unfair.

    I want to learn about him, so that comment doesn't help me
     
  5. Waddell

    Waddell Well-Known Member

    Curious as to what a Jewish woman said about Adolf Eichmann that leads you to think that he wasn't anti-semitic or sadistic? Perhaps you could provide some quotes.

    It's difficult to see how you could paint a monster like that in a good light.
     
  6. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    In Our Time - Hannah Arendt - BBC Sounds

    In a programme first broadcast in 2017, Melvyn Bragg and guests discuss the political philosophy of Hannah Arendt. She developed many of her ideas in response to the rise of totalitarianism in the C20th, partly informed by her own experience as a Jew in Nazi Germany before her escape to France and then America. She wanted to understand how politics had taken such a disastrous turn and, drawing on ideas of Greek philosophers as well as her peers, what might be done to create a better political life. Often unsettling, she wrote of 'the banality of evil' when covering the trial of Eichmann, one of the organisers of the Holocaust. With Lyndsey Stonebridge Professor of Modern Literature and History at the University of East Anglia Frisbee Sheffield Lecturer in Philosophy at Girton College, University of Cambridge and Robert Eaglestone Professor of Contemporary Literature and Thought at Royal Holloway, University London Producer: Simon Tillotson

    The "banality of evil" perhaps - so not "in a good light"
     
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  7. Goe

    Goe Member

    Waddell, I think Eichmann was evil and I don't justify his crimes. So I don't paint a monster "in a good light".

    However, I think not every german that collaborated in Holocaust was antisemitic or sadistic (even when all of them were criminals and their crimes are totally immoral). I think some of them collaborated by not antisemitic or sadistic, but egoist reasons (not to loss a job, don't be in trouble for questioning the stablishment of the 3rd Reich, etc). That non-antisemitic collaborators were cowards, evil and criminals, and is fair to judge them as assassins or collaborators with mass assassinations.

    I want to know more about Eichmann personality, not to justify him or denying he was evil. For sure, I won't do so.
     
  8. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Goe,

    Have you seen...

    Conspiracy (2001 film) - Wikipedia

    Ww2talk thread on the film - Conspiracy - Conspiracy (HBO/BBC).

    I think the Eichmann character in that (played by Stanley Tucci) shows a portrayal of Eichmann's character and what he thought about Jewish people.

    I think that there was a German version of the Wannsee Conference also produced a few years before that that also portrayed Eichmann?

    See... Conspiracy (HBO/BBC).

    With - Gerd Böckmann as SS-Obersturmbannführer Adolf Eichmann: Head of RSHA IV B4.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
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  9. Goe

    Goe Member

    Thanks a lot, Ramiles. About Eichmann, I have only watched the 2018 film. I must watch Conspiracy then. Thanks
     
  10. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
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  11. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Well you have learnt about him from this forum

    I assume English is your second language and perhaps your question has not translated well

    Eichman was a disgusting individual who was a major part of the Hollocaust

    thats all you need to know from us
     
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  12. Goe,

    As self-proclaimed student in philosophy, you should be able to understand our suspicions about your first questions on this forum, because in your User Introduction (Hi) you admit having learned about WW2 from movies and video games, plus having read a staggering three books supposedly related to it, but two of them focusing on the Soviet deportation system and Nazi concentration and extermination camps system respectively, the third one ("The Amnesiacs") being a complete mystery to me (no excerpt/review available online of this very obscure book). By the way, what is the title of the book you read "about Hannah Arendt"?

    Your presence here may thus understandably be interpreted not as a genuine attempt to understand more about WW2 in general, but to try and find "positive" personality traits in one of the major actors in the Holocaust, which is a curious way to begin a study of WW2.

    It is therefore totally "fair" to question your agenda.

    But then yes, actors in the Holocaust were human beings, had a mother and a father and sometimes a spouse and children, some were highly educated, could behave politely, so what?
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
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  13. Goe

    Goe Member

    CL1, I'm from Spain.

    If I have written something in a bad way, please tell me what I did wrong. Thanks in advance.

    You said that all I need to know from you (this forum's members) is that "Eichmann was a disgusting individual who was a major part of the Hollocaust”. However, that is a simple explanation because assuming Eichmann was disgusting, there are many ways to be disgusting. Here, a list:

    1) Being antisemitic and sadistic
    2) Being antisemitic only
    3) Being sadistic only
    4) Not being antisemitic nor sadistic but collaborating in Holocaust for egoistic reasons (power, money, avoiding problems with the NSDAP, etc)
    5) Others that are not relevant in our discussion (For example, being a rapist).

    I asked because I wanted to know more about Eichmann and knowing he was evil and a major part in Holocaust is not enought for me (and thats good because knowledge is someting good for human beings. By the way, knowing more about why evil people do evil things help us to avoid it more than “he was evil and that's all”). I haven't denied, questioned or justified Holocaust, so there's no reason for your hostile attitude against me.
     
  14. Goe

    Goe Member

    Hi:

    This is the Book I was talking about:

    https://www.amazon.es/Those-Who-Forget-Familys-History/dp/1501199080

    The spanish title is “los amnésicos”, so I thought the title was the same in English. It was my mistake.

    About the book about Harendt I read, here you have:

    Colección Descubrir La Filosofía en PDF - La Biblioteca Filosófica

    About me, my lack of knowledge about IIWW doesn't mean I am antisemitic.

    I am a new member, so nobody here knows me, and I understand when you don't know someone, you think he or she may be antisemitic, potential assassin, psycopath or whatever. For me, for example, you may be a maoist since I don't know your opinions about Mao Zedong.

    However, I think is unfair to show hostility to a new member that haven't done anything bad yet (even if you suspect is antisemitic, stalinist or whatever). Once a new member violate the forum rules or express immoral ideas, is fair to show hostility against him/her, but not before.

    The only good way to reply in this thread, in my opinion, is helping me to know how Eichmann was, like Ramiles did.

    In any case, I have already expressed I think Holocaust was real, is immoral, and all people who colaborated are criminals that should be judged despite they were antisemitic or acted by non-antisemitic (but immoral anyway) reasons. Real NS or antisemitic would never express that ideas (They would be considered as traitors by their “comrades”).

    Best regards
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
  15. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

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  16. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Goe,

    Today is Remembrance Day - reassessment of Eichmann or wondering what his true motives were - is a red flag to a bull.

    Genuinely, perhaps you have studied Franco and the Spanish Civil War?

    spanish civil war | WW2Talk
     
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  17. Goe

    Goe Member

    I have studied Franco and Spanish civil war at school and as a spaniard, I have grew up hearing about that.

    In any case, despite if is Remembrace day or not, wondering about Eichmann's true motives is correct everytime you don't justify his crimes. And I won't do, for sure. He was a criminal, he acted immorally and I'll never support him. In any case, thank you for your help, Ramiles.

    Thanks for the book reference too, Itdan.
     
  18. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

  19. I have not read Arendt's "The Banality of Evil", but from what I understand her point was precisely that Eichmann was not (initially) a particularly evil character, and that most participants in the Holocaust were the average man in the street. Evil people will do evils things, that's easy to understand, but how apparently normal people get to do evil things is more interesting, as well as more frightening.

    On the particular case of Eichmann, not everybody agrees on Arendt's thesis though. One example among many:
    What did Hannah Arendt really mean by the banality of evil? | Aeon Ideas
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2021
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  20. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    There was a recent one of these podcasts :

    https://podbay.fm/p/we-have-ways-of-making-you-talk/e/1635991200

    SHOW NOTES
    Hans Frank ran Poland for the Nazis during the Second World War and was found guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity at Nuremberg. His son Niklas was seven years old when Frank was hanged. In this extraordinarily candid conversation Niklas Frank talks to James Holland about living with his father’s legacy.

    That I think deals similarly with motives etc. Whether primarily it is about evilness or the acquisition of status and power... and those that would just "do anything" - for such.

    And of course how one deals with such individuals, doing evil deeds etc.
     
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