A little advice needed re. Sherwood Rangers & Desert Rats

Discussion in 'RAC & RTR' started by Kosel Den, Jan 14, 2017.

  1. Kosel Den

    Kosel Den Member

    Hello all, I'm trying to piece together my late Grandfathers military history and am a little confused over a few things.
    I believe he enlisted in 1838 into the Sherwood Rangers Yeomany, but then its written 1st Cav Div & 5th Cav Brigade. Is one an attachment of the other?
    8th Armd Bdr RAC is also written down, would that be connected to the above at all?

    I belive he went through France, the Med, Palenstine, Tobruk, Egypt and Europe for D-Day landings of which he was on Gold beach if I remember correctly.
    Were the Sherwood Rangers also Desert Rats or would he have joined/attached to them?

    Apologies if I'm asking something blindly obvious, just piecing together my heroes life and you guys hold the knowledge ☺️
    If it helps at all, his name was Clive Banfield Payne 318504
  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

  3. Kosel Den

    Kosel Den Member

    Ideal, thank you Clive
  4. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

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  5. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

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  6. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    "Kosel Den"

    As well as his complete service records (being a must) as mentioned above, I'm not sure if you have got or considered getting his tracer card too? i.e. as in: RTR Tracer Cards

    You obviously have some details though. As...as you say...you: "believe he enlisted in 1838 into the Sherwood Rangers Yeomany, but then its written 1st Cav Div & 5th Cav Brigade. Is one an attachment of the other?
    8th Armd Bdr RAC is also written down, would that be connected to the above at all?

    Threw me a bit there with the "1838" bit ;) - would that be 1938? :)

    This would tie in with: BBC - WW2 People's War - Recollections from August 1939 - July 1946

    i.e. : "This story has been entered onto the People's War website, by CSV Volunteer, Ann Toomey, on behalf of the author Clive Banfield Payne, who is fully aware of the site's terms and conditions.

    Aged 18 I applied to be accepted into the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry of the 1st Cavalry division and the 5th Cavalry Brigade. August 1939 on vacation with my parents and older brother in Polzeath (N. Cornwall) and during that time we were embodied into the Regular Army from the T.A. for the duration and ordered to report to the Barracks in Newark (Notts) having collected our spurs, bandoliers, boots, sabre etc. from our home. Vigorous training ensued including parade ground drilling, bare back riding, gunnery etc., and the inevitable innoculations and guard duties - we marched to a cafe for lunch with our band!" etc. (well worth reading the rest!)

    I assume you've not yet perhaps glanced at just: Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry - Wikipedia

    But there are some quick answers there, to your initial primary questions.

    Along with 7th Armoured Division (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia

    ...for the Desert Rats. And i.e. "At the end of November 1942, the 8th Armoured brigade came under the command of the 7th Armoured Division, the famous Desert Rats and was involved in the battles around El Agheila. This battle opened the road past Marble Arch to Nofaliya, which was entered without opposition."

    I have glanced in the transcribed war diaries of the SRY and saw a few scant mentions of just the surname Payne, albeit this one for instance, seemingly another: THURSDAY, 24TH JULY 1941 - The following transfer to take effect w.e.f. today's date:- 401871 Tpr. Payne, F. “C” Sqdn to “HQ” Sqdn (So I guess not him)

    Also: The book "An Englishman at War: The Wartime Diaries of Stanley Christopherson DSO MC ..."
    By Stanley Christopherson (About the SRY)

    Has a very brief passing meniton of a "Sgt Payne". : An Englishman at War: The Wartime Diaries of Stanley Christopherson DSO MC & Bar 1939-1945

    And you might, for instance, be able to see this on one of the "free to view preview pages" :rolleyes:

    All the best,


    Ps. "An Englishman at War" is a book well worth getting if you want to read more about the SRY.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2017
  7. Kosel Den

    Kosel Den Member

    Thank you for the reply Ramiles. And firstly, yes I meant 1938, lol.cant believe I missed that one.
    I've had a good read through Wiki pages availible for the Sherwood Rangers and the 7th Armoured, starting to understand the make up of it all.
    Are those Tracer Cards likely to be present for my Grandfather despite not being a tank reg, or were they for General troops postings as well?

    I'll be tracking down a copy of 'An Englishman at War' as well, it sounds an informative read. Thank you for the recommendation.

    I understand the process of obtaining his Service Records is a long and potentially disappointing one, ( going next of kin route with living Grandmother) ,so in the mean time I'm planning to try and locate the relevant War Diaries explaining his DivIsions movements.
    Would the SRY had made entries into such diaries or is it down to looking through the diaries of 7th Armoured Division?
    Thank you again for your advice.
  8. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Having his service records will help narrow down where to look and might help avoid some miss-turns in research.

    It would or could be frustrating though to get the war diaries for a unit or units (for periods) that he was not actually in.

    Albeit was the BBC article, for instance of any use? BBC - WW2 People's War - Recollections from August 1939 - July 1946

    I think from memory it took about 3 weeks to get my grandfather's service records, so it wasn't so long to wait, but others have had other experiences. You should be helped by having your relatives full name and some details such as what looks like his army number etc.

    You can try Bovington for the tracer card and just see what they have got, they should tell you for free via email that they have one. RTR Tracer Cards

    At which point you can, if you chose, buy a scan for £5, I think it says. And that process for me took about 15-30mins (when they were open).

    This is my grandfather's

    To give you some idea of what's on there.

    This is a handy online link to some further quick info on the 8th Armoured:

    My grandfather was given a copy of this original doc sometime around 1945 I think, along with others in the SRY, but it's nice that someone has put this online, as it's an interesting read.

    Last edited: Jan 15, 2017
  9. Guy Hudson

    Guy Hudson Looker-upper

    Kosel Den,
    This a cutting from the Nottingham Evening Post 15th March 1946 detailing the award of the British Empire Medal to your grandfather. It states that he served with the SRY for the entire war.

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  10. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic


    You have his name and Army Number: the fact that he was Royal Armoured Corps means that Bovvy will have his tracer card. I think they charge £5 to provide a scanned copy. Exceptionally good value when you bear in mind the time it could easily save etc, and they are a Registered Charity so need the funds.

    There is a massive amount of information out there for the SRY and even a descendant 'Regiment' with a Home HQ at Carlton near Nottingham and a Regimental Museum based at Thoresby Hall near Nottingham. You will actually be spoilt for choice so I suggest you get together a summary list of tasks and then take it from there. Welcome to a lifelong quest!....this sort of thing can get quite addictive.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2017
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  11. Kosel Den

    Kosel Den Member

    Service records are a must it seems I've started that process, and have fired an email off to Bovington so am hoping some comes of that.

    I recall the posting on the fantastic People's War website, I can't believe I had allowed myself to forget that piece of information. Reading through it, it seems I've a few set places and dates to start from.

    I've also been given a few more bits from my Grandmother. ID disc, assorted 'certificates' for medals and battles, and two large old photos. They are group photos, 19 in the 1st, and 120+ in the 2nd. I've no info on the second, but 'G.H.Q EGYPT' is written on the reverse of the first photo. I'm going to see if I can get a clear shot of it and post it to this thread, if that's allowed or of use to anybody else.
  12. Kosel Den

    Kosel Den Member

    Wow! Great find Guy! I knew of him being awarded the BEM with mention in dispatches, but I've never been able to find such a snippet as you have there. I wear that medal with his others, each and every Rememberance March that have passed since his death in 2010.
    Thank you Sir
  13. Kosel Den

    Kosel Den Member


    That's ideal, I am hoping to hear something back re the Tracer Card in the coming week or two and will happily pay such a fee for their service
  14. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I found Bovington very helpful too, albeit for my grandfather the "tracer" card left out that he had joined up in 1928, so the full records are better for (pre-war) stuff like that I guess. And would have left a "gap" if I had only "gone" for the tracer card.

    It shows that he went from 9th L to the 24th L though, then 24th L to SRY - along with dates, and the fact that he was on the reserve so to speak until discharged in 1954.

    The full records have such details as the date he left for France in 1940 and then the date when he came back...

    9th Lancers in May and June 1940

    Along with his periodic risings in N.C.O. rank, and dates for each attached.

    Nb. no mention on the tracer card of that.

    I think they put the ranks in pencil on the tracer cards and then just rubbed it out, over-wrote etc. as things went along.

    Last edited: Jan 15, 2017
  15. Kosel Den

    Kosel Den Member

    This is the first photo.
    I'm thinking the second may need to be scanned though

    Attached Files:

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  16. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

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  17. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce Patron

    Nah, whatever makes you think that? Used to be the case a while ago when the records took 6-9 months. They usually arrive in around 2 to 3 weeks now-well worth the 30 quid it costs. I see you've started that process:)

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  18. Kosel Den

    Kosel Den Member

    Ah that I good to hear Lesley. Admittedly I was unsure of how long it took aside from a few posts I saw in the past, they were talking like it was a long ole affair. I'll be seeing my Grandmother next week to fill out the needed bits on the request form.

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