What about the poor sods who died between the wars?

Discussion in 'Prewar' started by saintconor, Jan 4, 2010.

  1. Puttenham

    Puttenham Well-Known Member

    A cat aboard ship brings good luck. Probably the reason the ship survived.


    PUT
     
  2. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    I came across this today,it makes me sad and also angry unlike other lost graves these lads are not buried on the other side of the world .Why have they been forgotten?

    Opole Town Cemetery

    Kyle
     
  3. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

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  4. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    You have to understand that the IWGC (and what the "W" stands for) to see that not every death of Service personnel can be accommodated in their operating brief.
    Sad though it is, the periods for which deaths they are responsible for have been set, there are just as many other "deserving" of Remembrance; those who lingered on after the official cut off dates and then succumbed to wounds or illnesses; WW1 civilian deaths caused by enemy action and no doubt other similarly "worthy" candidates.
    Life ain't perfect, but Forums such as here and the GWF do at least provide an opportunity for them to be brought to our knowledge.

    It's not a deliberate ploy by "someone" to forget some Service personnel and commemorate others.
     
  5. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Hello Kevin,
    Point taken although its not a hard and fast rule .I`m sure there are more cases but can anyone recall a cemetery where some were moved and others left? Look at Korea, Northern Ireland ,Iraq and Afghanistan together with the other small wars so what difference did these peacekeeping operations differ from those in 1921-1922? I have came across servicemen`s graves with the MoD style headstones who were killed in accidents, murdered in brawls etc
    It seems petty to exhume 11 to Berlin and leave 30 unattended and neglected even if they moved them to a seperate section within a CWGC plot (Which has happened) would have been better than this. It wasnt as if these graves were lost and from the website it appears the CWGC were prepared to move them so what went wrong? Money?
    In 1971 I was told a 19 year old friends relative had a fall whilst in the RA subsequent examinations revealed an un operable cancer in his spine,he died only weeks later the MoD paid for his funeral with full honours and offered a MoD headstone which was declined by the family in favour of a family headstone. He wasnt a `war` casualty but he did die whilst employed in the service of his country which makes the lads at Opole situation all the more annoying .

    Kyle
     
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  6. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

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  7. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    After the Second World War, Canada had 25,000 wounded being cared for by 36 hospitals and treatment centres across the country. In 1992, Canada’s war-blinded veterans held their last meeting in Ottawa. There were 70 of them. At the end of the Second World War, there were 500 members.
    No memorials for them either.
     
  8. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Reading through the posts again I agree that there`s thousands who died as a result of their injuries in the service of their country after their discharge and they are not commemorated but the difference between them and those 30 at Opole is these were still serving soldiers .
    There is, I am sure many arguments for and against commemoration for many its a simple case of logistics and numbers . My issue at Opole is a decision was made to exhume 11 men and commemorate them as WW1 dead yet those 30 left insitu were serving in the same theatre during the same operation but they were left and forgotten. These were soldiers at the time of death ,never discharged never returned to civilian life .
    My bewilderment is confined to the British Governments at the time and in no way is this a dig or disagreement with any other member or their individual opinions on here.
    Imagine if today one of our `instructors` in Iraq or Afghanistan were killed (God forbid) and the British Government told their families they were being left in a local graveyard because `officially` the date for their withdrawal had past. Unthinkable ! Just as it should have been at Opole. :(

    Kyle
     
  9. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Is it worth raising this with your local MP to ask the appropriate Minister to enquire if these 30 could be better honoured by interment in a more suitable CWGC cemetery? You make a good case, as if 11 can be removed and commemorated as "WW1" dead, then why not these?
    If nothing better, perhaps the pressure could be applied to the Polish Government (after all, we went to their aid in WW2) for the graves to be properly cared for under some suitable arrangement.
    The situation as now known isn't satisfactory and it may be "interesting" to see what the MoD will do.
     
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  10. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Excellent suggestion Kevin :) I will do that .

    Kyle
     
  11. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Royal Ulster Rifles China. article from 2017
    ‘Finding Wee Paddy’ is a new documentary that has its first showing on 21 October 2017 at the Metropolitan Arts Centre, Belfast. It tells the story of the relocation of the grave of Rifleman Patrick McGowan, Royal Ulster Rifles, who was killed by a Japanese aircraft while on patrol in Shanghai on 24 October 1937. Some of the photographs used come from the Malcolm Rosholt Collection, and the producers have been able to provide additional details we did not previously have for one set of photographs which showed a group of five Riflemen at their sandbagged Lewis Gun post.
    [​IMG]
    Three of these men were killed by Japanese action, when shells landed nearby. James Mellon, manning the Lewis Gun; William Christopher Howard in the front row with a stick; and shirtless Robert Delaney. All were buried in the Bubbling Well Cemetery on 1 November, alongside Rifleman Joseph O’Toole, who was killed elsewhere the same day.

    Visualising China | Updates from Historical Photographs of China: http://hpcbristol.net

    On the 24th October 1937, 25-year-old Rifleman Patrick McGowan of Londonderry was killed by fire from a Japanese aircraft in the act of carrying a young woman to safety. Private McGowan's death caused a political outcry and had far reaching international significance. McGowan, along with 3 other Ulster riflemen killed in further attacks, were buried in Shanghai with full military honours. However, in the years after the conflict their resting places were lost. More than 60 years later, Paddy's niece Sara Moran began a journey to find out what happened to him.

    Kyle
     
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  12. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Buried Harrow Cemetery nw London

    Norman Scott Richardson
    5th December 1933

    "After long suffering caused by the war"


    His Brother died in WW1
    Flight Lieutenant RICHARDSON, W H
    Died 01/08/1917

    Royal Naval Air Service
    Buried at BAGHDAD (NORTH GATE) WAR CEMETERY

    Location: Iraq
    Number of casualties: 4487

    Cemetery/memorial reference: XXI. U. 1.
    upload_2019-5-22_22-11-20.png
     
  13. idler

    idler GeneralList Patron

    I've sort of rationalised it along the lines that the CWGC is primarily commemorating the 'civilian' soldiers of the world wars, whether volunteers or conscripts. Obviously, the professionals/regulars get swept up in this but outside of the CWGC's remit you can infer an attitude of 'serves you right, you shouldn't have joined'. The obvious flaw in that argument is the non-commemoration of post-war National Servicemen in Malaya, Korea, etc.
     
  14. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    The graves of those casualties which qualify for CWGC status of both world wars are the responsibility of the CWGC for care and maintenance.

    From what I understand,care and maintenance of serving service personnel who died outside the CWGC period is the responsibility of the MOD.For RAF graves there used to be an arrangement where the nearest RAF unit undertook this task.

    I have noted that where dependants of servicing personnel are buried in these cemeteries,the MOD appears to look after them.The Cologne South Cemetery provides a good example of this where dependants from the British Rhineland occupation force post Great War and beyond the cut off date are buried in their own plot.There is another example in the additional military section of Scampton cemetery where a father,a serving F/L and his son who were the victims of a road accident about 20 years ago are buried.

    The CWGC headstone has a different top contour than that of those who died outside the CWGC qualifying dates.On the other hand,at Harpswell there are a number of aircrew casualties who were killed up to a year before 3 September 1939 while their squadrons were working up the Hampden at Hemswell. The majority of the next of kin chose to have civilian headstones with RAF insignia added to them.
     
  15. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    From my post this is a person who died due to injuries or health issues(physical or mental) in 1933 the family belief is that his death was caused by WW1.My post is another take on a person who died between the wars who served and survived past the cut off of 1921 date .
    Example of a person who died between the wars.
    Charles Mcmenamen Laing died 1934 .His son died in WW2 whilst serving in the RAF

    upload_2019-5-23_11-35-51.png


    This link lists the casualties who died after the cut off period of WW2
    The Roll of Honour records the names of members of the British Armed Forces who have died in military service since the end of the Second World War. This searchable website provides details about the type of service, regiment or corps, burial place (if known) and whether someone’s name is on the National Memorial in the National Memorial Arboretum.

    We maintain the graves of some military personnel who died in non-world war conflicts on behalf of other governments and agencies. We may hold very limited information about their grave. Please contact: enquiries@cwgc.org.
    Search the Armed Forces Memorial roll of honour

    example of post war WW2 headstone

    upload_2019-5-23_11-23-18.png
     
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  16. TijgerB

    TijgerB Member

    Interesting subject for my part I have been researching the British/Indian occupation of the Dutch East Indies. Through the years I have been choked to see how bad CWGC records are. Especially if you are not a British citizen many of them are registred as lost in Burma 1941/42.
     
  17. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    Opole petition online

    Jim Powrie needs your help with “Ministry of Defence: Provision of headstones for 30 British soldiers lying in unmarked graves in Poland.”.

    Sign the Petition

    Kyle
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019

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