What about the poor sods who died between the wars?

Discussion in 'Prewar' started by saintconor, Jan 4, 2010.

  1. saintconor

    saintconor Senior Member

    This has been something that has bothered me since as long as I can remember. As everyone knows the CWGC covers the 1st and 2nd world wars. Or to be more specific 04/08/1914 until 31/08/1921 for WW1 and 03/09/1939 untill 31/12/1947. As well as this we have the new Armed Forces Memorial which covers the period 01/01/1948 until the present day. I appreciate that pre WW1 might be difficult to cover but I feel it totally unacceptable that the inter war period of 01/09/1921 until 02/09/1939 is ignored. British forces were involved in a number of campaigns during this period including the North West Frontier and Palestine. I'm going to try and put together a Roll of Honour which hopefully will do these men and women justice. A campaign to the Government might even be on the cards to get these men remembered.

    Some information which I have managed to gather so far:

    Worcestershire Regiment - Palestine 1938-39

    See here Worcestershire Regiment(29th/36th of Foot) Web site

    Irish Guards - Palestine 1938

    17/08/1938 2718326 GDSM G BROWN
    17/08/1938 2718530 GDSM W MITCHELL
    18/08/1938 2716440 GDSM G GRIFFIN
    19/09/1938 2718821 GDSM T

    Irish Guards - CONSTANTINOPLE

    23/08/1923 2715532 GDSM R McCRACKEN
    09/06/1922 2715245 GDSM W McCREA

    Royal Scots - Palestine 1938-39

    20/07/1938 CSM 3044414 G W BEAUCHAMP ROYAL SCOTS
    10/11/1938 PTE 3055650 J S CAIRNS ROYAL SCOTS
    09/01/1939 PTE G GAULD ROYAL SCOTS
    09/09/1938 PTE 3055383 C GAVAN ROYAL SCOTS
    08/02/1938 L/SJT 3052094 R G MANSON ROYAL SCOTS
    28/11/1938 L/CPL 2752555 J MCCALLUM ROYAL SCOTS
    14/03/1939 PTE 3055021 J NOLAN ROYAL SCOTS
    23/08/1938 CPT J R OAKLEY ROYAL SCOTS
    17/07/1938 PTE 3054837 W PARKINS ROYAL SCOTS
    09/11/1938 L/CPL 3054846 G B REDPATH ROYAL SCOTS
    12/11/1938 CPL J RODGER ROYAL SCOTS
    06/03/1938 CPL 3053480 H WILSON ROYAL SCOTS
    09/11/1938 PTE 2926622 M WINTER ROYAL SCOTS
    21/10/1938 DMR 3053464 R WRIGHT ROYAL SCOTS

    Royal Ulster Rifles - SUDAN

    30/08/1932 7010621 RIFLEMAN J.RUSSELL

    Royal Ulster Rifles - PALESTINE

    11/02/1933 7011527 RIFLEMAN J.MURPHY
    10/06/1933 7011532 RIFLEMAN G.ROACH

    Royal Ulster Rifles - HONG KONG

    29/07/1936 LANCE CORPORAL J.BARCLAY
    12/02/1937 RIFLEMAN A.NODDINGS

    Royal Ulster Rifles - SHANGHAI

    24/10/1937 7011485 RIFLEMAN W.McGOWAN
    29/10/1937 7011701 RIFLEMAN J. MELLON
    29/10/1937 7011338 RIFLEMAN W.C.HOWARD
    29/10/1937 7011845 RIFLEMAN J.O’TOOLE
    31/10/1937 7011813 RIFLEMAN R.DELEANEY

    Royal Ulster Rifles - RAWALPINDI

    10/01/1938 7012281 RIFLEMAN N.W.ARMSTRONG

    Royal Ulster Rifles - PALESTINE 1938

    31/01/1938 7013251 RIFLEMAN S.CHERRY
    31/01/1938 7013241 RIFLEMAN S.REID
    18/07/1938 7011156 RIFLEMAN M.McEWEN
    06/09/1938 7012070 LANCE CORPORAL J.ANDREWS
    06/09/1938 7011889 RIFLEMAN A.COALTER
    07/09/1938 7012112 LANCE CORPORAL C.Y.KENNEDY
    09/09/1938 SECOND LIEUTENANT J.A.LAW MC
    14/02/1939 7012263 RIFLEMAN R.GRAHAM

    As this brief glimpse shows, this period was far from bloodless and I have no doubt that the numbers will run into the thousands.
     
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  2. izzy

    izzy Senior Member

    Soldiers Deaths are recorded in the G.R.O death indexes from the Boer War onwards to the Present day. Liverpool Library hold indexes as i presume many local History Archives do. Are you intrested in anyone in particular as given the time i may be going there on Wednesday.
     
  3. saintconor

    saintconor Senior Member

    Soldiers Deaths are recorded in the G.R.O death indexes from the Boer War onwards to the Present day. Liverpool Library hold indexes as i presume many local History Archives do. Are you intrested in anyone in particular as given the time i may be going there on Wednesday.

    Hi Izzy, thanks for that information regarding the GRO death index. I'm not really interested in anyone in particular I just hope to identify as many of them as possible and add them to this thread. I just feel they should remembered. Hopefully others feel the same and will add any who they come across.

    Conor
     
  4. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    As this brief glimpse shows, this period was far from bloodless and I have no doubt that the numbers will run into the thousands.

    Conor, there are well over 2000 buried in CWGC cemeteries (1922-1938). Have you asked them for details?
     
  5. saintconor

    saintconor Senior Member

    Hi Geoff, I have not asked them but I will make it a priority to do so when I get back from sea in June. Do you think they will be able to help?

    Regards

    Conor
     
  6. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    There were quite a number of RAF casualties during this period of running the RAF down from 1919 to those who lost their lives as the RAF was working up from 1935 when new airfields were being established,new squadrons formed and new aircraft being converted to.

    Seems strange that those lost a few months before the war were not recognised by the CWGC as regards grave status.Although the graves of these dead are maintained by the nearest RAF unit,it would seem appropriate that the maintenance of their graves should be included in the CWGC's responsibility.The same considerations should apply to those dead, post second world war who are outside the CWGC's responsibilities.
     
  7. izzy

    izzy Senior Member

    Regarding pre WW2 service deaths. I remember seeing a memorial to R.A.F casualties and their families whose lives were lost in an Earthquake. The Memorial is the Meerut Earthquake Memorial Quetta commemorates the lives lost in the 1935 disaster.
     
  8. saintconor

    saintconor Senior Member

    Just keeping this one in the public eye. To make things easier I have decided to concentrate first on the Army. To date I have identified a few hundred casualties who died in places such as India, Palestine, Malta, Cyprus, Gibraltar, Egypt, Sudan and at home.
     
  9. Fireman

    Fireman Discharged

    Personally it has always irritated me that remembering our war dead, by and large, starts from the 1st WW. I think remembering all those who have died in the service of our country should be remembered. Living here in the Basque region, in fact almost literally on one of the recorded battle sites of the Peninsular War, it quite annoys me that our soldiers from this period are barely remembered let alone from the many conflicts before then. So! what about those poor sods as well? Patently there are no known graves for these people but what about a memorial for those who have died in the past or is something like that only for Admirals and Generals?
     
  10. saintconor

    saintconor Senior Member

    Personally it has always irritated me that remembering our war dead, by and large, starts from the 1st WW. I think remembering all those who have died in the service of our country should be remembered. Living here in the Basque region, in fact almost literally on one of the recorded battle sites of the Peninsular War, it quite annoys me that our soldiers from this period are barely remembered let alone from the many conflicts before then. So! what about those poor sods as well? Patently there are no known graves for these people but what about a memorial for those who have died in the past or is something like that only for Admirals and Generals?

    I understand fully where your coming from but the information from so long ago is just so difficult to come by. Maybe a job for later? :)
     
  11. Fireman

    Fireman Discharged

    Saintconer:
    Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I know that finding details such as names etc. of those who fought in wars now almost forgotten is impossible but the conflicts themselves are known so why not a memorial to those who died in such conflicts? I suppose nobody can get any kudos from such a memorial! I suppose your right whene you pose: "what about those poor sods" The answer is no one cares enough about those poor sods, too long ago.
     
  12. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER Patron

    This has been something that has bothered me since as long as I can remember. As everyone knows the CWGC covers the 1st and 2nd world wars. Or to be more specific 04/08/1914 until 31/08/1921 for WW1 and 03/09/1939 untill 31/12/1947. As well as this we have the new Armed Forces Memorial which covers the period 01/01/1948 until the present day. I appreciate that pre WW1 might be difficult to cover but I feel it totally unacceptable that the inter war period of 01/09/1921 until 02/09/1939 is ignored. British forces were involved in a number of campaigns during this period including the North West Frontier and Palestine. I'm going to try and put together a Roll of Honour which hopefully will do these men and women justice. A campaign to the Government might even be on the cards to get these men remembered.

    I realise the numbers of deaths and conflicts were greater for Britain than Australia however we can look up online every death from those conflicts:

    The Sudan through to the Iraq war in 2003.

    Australian War Memorial - Search the Roll of Honour

    Select a conflict and press search.

    Cheers

    Geoff
     
  13. Verrieres

    Verrieres no longer a member

    I must have missed this one completely first time around! This has concerned me for a long time now and the lack of information surrounding these people.
    I made enquiries with the MoD a number of years ago and I got a very nice letter back regarding graves which they have placed in the care of the CWGC unfortunately they could not (or declined) to supply a list of these graves and recommended I contact the CWGC which I did,and again received a very polite reply setting out their charter but no information.
    I recontacted the MoD who again replied suggesting I contact the individual regiments/units these men belonged to,as the regiment/unit often paid for the funeral/headstone particularly if the casualty died in some far flung part of the old Empire.
    As everyone will know my particular interest lies with the Durham Light Infantry who had become the Light Infantry in 1968 and then more recently the Rifles.Each amalgamation or affiliation diluting the link back to the DLI (probably the same as when the old 68th Foot became 1 DLI).I have contacted the DLI association and spoke with officials at the Rifles office in Durham and though very sympathetic (and often puzzled at the questions) could not point out any definative list or source.
    My hopes were raised when Geoff kindly posted his link to `not the search engine` which displayed 23 `hits` on Durham Light Infantrymen both pre and post Second World War. Whilst 23 is 23 more than which was previously available it is still a small number considering that through my (not complete)research I have found 114 DLI casualties(deaths ) from 1920-1930 alone plus a further 7 for the 1st DLI alone in 1939 (Jan-Sept 3rd 1939).
    Where these lads now lie is harder to find many cemeteries in India etc fell into disrepair and many of the headstones will have been `recycled` no doubt.One particular casualty in the care of the CWGC has his headstone photograph available on TWGPP site but if you click on the image you find it is half a headstone and before anyone points this out I am aware of the CWGC policy (as in the Private Family headstones) regarding the disregard of the stone condition as long as the casualties name is still legible but it still isnt right that these lads lie forgotten.
    The 1st DLI lost seven soldiers and one officer in China through various causes each were buried with full military honours (including one who was buried at sea in the harbour due to flooding!) None of the cemeteries survived the Cultural Revolution in China and the only memorial I can find is one to the Officer of the Regiment who has a simple plaque the rest I am informed were bulldozed and built on...but warning (albeit short notice)was given of this so why no move to have these lads moved?
    I am asking questions but really know the answers...money..politics...short memories and to some extent being overshadowed by the horrendous amount of casualties suffered in two world wars.It is a sad fact that very little information is available or even exists about these casualties and I find it unacceptable that their sacrifice meant so little.:poppy:


    Best Wishes

    Jim
     
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  14. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    What about the poor sods who died between the wars?

    The sacrifice of many of these inter-war service casualties are remembered and honoured on war memorials or in Books of Remembrance, such as in Regimental Museums. I can think of several examples where this applies.

    For example, I recently made an enquiry on 'WW2 Talk' about a Royal Air Force casualty whose name appears on a church war memorial for 1939 - 1945. His name is Sergeant Ralph Lavery, RAF, who - along with his 5 crewmates - were lost when their aircraft went down in the Channel while on exercise on the night of 23 / 24 January 1939.

    Sometimes service casualties who died up to the mid-1920s can be commemorated on a local war memorial mainly remembering those who died in WW1. One example is Private John Byers, 1st Battalion The Border Regiment, who died 22/10/1920 and was buried in Karachi War Cemetery. Pte Byers is not commemorated by the CWGC but he is commemorated on the WW1 Memorial at St John's Church, Cleator Moor, Cumbria.

    As Verrieres as already referred to, the CWGC maintains many graves of service men and women (and some civilians) who died in the inter-war years. One example that come to mind is LAC D.D. ARMSTRONG, Age 21, S/No 364480, RAF. LAC Armstrong died as the result of a road accident on on 10 July 1930 and is buried in the CWGC plot at North Cotes Churchyard, Lincolnshire.

    While your idea is a worthy one, can I suggest that you change the wording of your original question using a more appropriate term for the deceased service men and women? Possibly you may consider using the term 'poor souls' rather than the one you have chosen? 'Poor souls' is a more respectful term.
     
  15. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    My ex wifes great grandfather died after WW1 as a result of being gased 3 times. He was awarded a Military Medal for his effortS but died two after the war in 1920 I believe. He is not recorded on CWGC.
     
  16. Assam

    Assam Senior Member

    In thinking about places such as the sub continent, its going to be bloody hard given all the civil,cantonment cemetaries around & would it include British subjects in the various Regiments of the Indian army?. Given the deployment of troops in particular in an around an undivided India, there are probably in excess of 100 cemetaries that would hold remains.

    One thought I had in easing the burdon of trying to locate such burials, was that the graves would have markers that were privately purchased. In saying that, was it the norm for Regiments to have a "mortality fund" to pay for the plot & masonry?.

    If this information is located within regimental records then the job would be made somewhat easier.


    Regards

    Simon
     
  17. Assam

    Assam Senior Member

    Here is a link to a couple of Regiments for interwar deaths:
    SearchResults
    SearchResults

    here are 2 that died in 1918 with SLi but are NOT on the CWGC Index:
    SearchResults

    and more:
    SearchResults

    well it is a start, although it is gewtting even murkier with recognisable WW1 deaths not being recorded on
    CWGC database


    Regards

    simon
     
  18. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    Many of the inter-war casualties are also remembered in memorials in churchyards, Rolls of Honour or Books of Remembrance. Here are brief details of another inter-war service casualty who is buried and remembered in his home town:

    Cadet Pilot John Hogg, RAF;
    Date of death: 27/11/1936;
    Age: 19;
    Son of John W. Hogg and Margaret Hogg of Cleator Moor, Cumberland.
    Buried: St Mary's Churchyard, Cleator, Cumberland.

    Cadet Pilot Hogg was one of two RAF servicemen accidentally killed when their aircraft hit overhead power lines next to the main East Coast railway line. It is believed they were based at No 7 Flying Training School, Peterborough and the aircraft crashed into railway line near Corby, Northants.

    (Photograph of headstone attached. Cadet Pilot Hogg is also listed in the Cleator Moor 'Roll of Honour').
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    I have been reading about the Yangtse Incident and came across this statement/investigation into the fate of the bodies of the RN sailors who died it doesn't make easy reading.

    Its from 2000 15 years ago I doubt it ever progressed any further :(

    Theres Pathe coverage of their funerals here too

    http://www.britishpathe.com/video/last-britons-leave/query/shanghai



    http://www.maritimequest.com/warship_directory/great_britain/pages/sloops/hms_amethyst_u16_blow_to_vets.htm

    Kyle
     
  20. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Of the forty-six British sailors who were killed during in the Yangtze Incident, twenty-three were buried with full military honours in Shanghai. Unfortunately, during the 1960s their graves were desecrated and eventually completely destroyed. Lieutenant-Commander Bernard Skinner was buried at sea off Shanghai as per the wishes of his widow in Hong Kong, while the remaining dead were buried in the Yangtze River.

    It was perhaps only natural that an animal loving people like the British should seize upon the story of Simon, the ship’s cat, to help them come to terms with the Amethyst disaster. Simon was lauded in both the national and international press after the Amethyst returned to Plymouth in November 1949. At each and every port that the ship visited Able Seacat Simon was lauded and honoured alongside the Amethyst’s brave crewman. He was given the premier award for animal bravery, the Dickin Medal, as well as a medal from the Blue Cross. He was also given the Naval General Service Medal alongside his shipmates. One crewman from the Amethyst was given the full-time job of responding to the thousands of letters that people from all over the world wrote to the cat. On arrival in England, Simon was placed into routine quarantine at an animal centre in Surrey but he developed an infection caused by his war wounds and died on 28 November. His tiny coffin, draped in the Union Jack, was interred in a cemetery in Ilford, East London. Hundreds, including the entire crew of HMS Amethyst, attended his funeral.

    http://markfelton.co.uk/publishedbooks/am-under-heavy-fire/
     
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