War records: 13118102 Patrick Joseph HOCTOR, Pioneer Corps

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by Amanda hoctor, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. Amanda hoctor

    Amanda hoctor Member

    No don’t think ther related,
     
  2. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Amanda: There is a website for the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) which you can easily access and Find War Dead section allows you to input Names you are searching for. In your case, simply enter the surname and click on the Search button. That will bring up the 3 Hoctor casualties. Click on "your" one and it gives the basic details. Then look at the bottom of that screen where there are further buttons. Concentration gives details as to where buried and you can use the right side arrow to move to the next 2 pages. That's how you can see the original typed date has been amended in red. he Headstone button shows the epitaph chosen for him.

    But this is just background infill until you apply for and receive his Service Records. Ask for ALL file information to ensure you get all they have, sometimes they may have more than one file, so worth checking. In the meantime check amongst surviving family for all the information they may remember, just to help flesh out his background. Photos, memorabilia, medals, that kind of thing.
     
  3. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Did you know another granddaughter is also on the case? Scroll down to 27 Jun 2015 on this blog thread to see what she said, for instance about getting his service record. In answer to your earlier question, I found that c/o this web search.
     
  4. Amanda hoctor

    Amanda hoctor Member

    Yes that’s my sister. She drew a blank too.
     
  5. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    "She drew a blank too"- Not even able to obtain his Service Records?
    Without those, there isn't much more we can add....
     
  6. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    You’ll continue to draw a blank until you apply to MOD for his records. It has to be the starting point for your research. There is no shortcut.

    Steve
     
  7. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

  8. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Sorry to be like a dog with a bone but another red herring said sister was fruitlessly chasing was the first burial location in the mistaken belief that it was "where he actually died" rather than the more-likely reality of a convenient nearby location to facilitate later grave concentration. Maps being one of my interests, I have plotted CWGC's grid reference as an exercise and as attached.
    • My added red grid square is much clearer than this muddy JPG version in my intermediate PNG version but that is sadly too big to post here @ 2.42MB - though I could admittedly further crop it with some loss of contextual location clues if need be.
    • My quoted sheet R1 map source was Köln Digital Archive @ McMaster University Library
    • That grave was, unsurprisingly near a road junction just as my aforesaid relative was buried by the enemy in 1918 rather than leave him cluttering the field where Fritz' MG sniper mowed a dozen down. Circumstances would have been less fraught in Sep 1945 but this account of the Pioneer Corps' burial role may help educate - Goff's War 1939-1946 (BAF)
    Edit: Whoops, sorry, just noticed that's 403599 I plotted there - 403594 is 500m further south and so roughly level with the bottom of the "Lindenthal" legend.

    Edit2: Deleting erroneous attachment following replacement below.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  9. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Plot herewith corrected with grid square now in white thanks to my layered PSP original - now to scrap the wrong-un!
     
  10. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Red Goblin: Whilst I admire your persistence, surely a roadside grave is more often found during hostilities, and by September 1945 "peace" had broken out.
    Isn't it likely then that he would have been taken to a hospital if still alive, or a morgue, and then buried at Cologne South? It seemed to me that that re-interment in 1947 may have been a reordering of existing graves to better conform to CWGC standards?
    I'm no expert, just putting my thoughts for review....
     
  11. Richard Lewis

    Richard Lewis Member

    As another cartophile here’s my attempt. It’s a later 1:25,000 map with the later grid system, so I’ve superimposed it on the larger scale map.

    Köln.jpg

    The location is what today is still parkland. It appears from the CWGC that several were relocated in 1947, as indeed many were moved to Cologne Southern Cemetery after the Great War from other cemeteries.
     
  12. Red Goblin

    Red Goblin Senior Member

    Sorry for the delay folks - vexatious internet outage....

    Hmm, Kevin seems to doubt the CWGC's records just because he doesn't yet know enough to make sense of them but take the family story of a shooting for example - bags of scope for weird skullduggery there alone! The Devil is proverbially in the detail and, on that score, it's simply too early to tell yet. Let's please get the service record and ORB evidence, Amanda?

    Still, Kevin may yet be right if St Elisabeth's hospital* - anonymously shown on Richard's map - was there at the time and used the parkland beside the Militärringstrasse as temporary bulk storage.

    2 even more modern takes on Richard's plot, BTW, are c/o Gurgle and OpenStreetMap. Bing Maps' 4 bird's eye views are also worthwhile but sadly unlinkable per se.

    * 'Krankenhaus' in German
     

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