War records: 13118102 Patrick Joseph HOCTOR, Pioneer Corps

How do I get answers to how my grandfather was killed after the end of the war? War records say died as result of accident.

 

And did he die in the UK or oversea? was he in the forces at the time?

 

This is all I’ve found

[mod edit: casualty list info]

WO Casualty list 1873
13118102 P J HOCTOR, Pioneer Corps
Died as result of Accident 2/10/1945

 

Unfortunately most family have also passed away, just leaving grandkids, but no other living relative knows the circumstances of his accident that caused his death.

 

follow the advice given


you will not track his records down on the internet on paid or unpaid sites no matter what they promise

 

seems a conflict of dates.

 

So vague. I’ll try what is suggested. Thank you all for your information. Any more information would be gratefuly received.

 

Yes, maybe also get & check:

• A certified death certificate - for his official Cause of Death most likely to have just resulted from an explosion being my circumstantial best guess. Sadly, though, I don't know the ropes for deaths abroad except that you may have to jump a few Foreign Office hoops as you certainly must outside Europe these days.
  
• As just advised, his unit's ORB (War Diary) - ought to cast more light on the circumstances even though only likely to individually name him if he somehow distinguished himself by, say, acting particularly rashly -
  British Army operations in the Second World War (TNA)
  A few of our members incidentally offer ORB-copying services if Kew is too far from you. If nothing else, ORBs are good for fleshing out the daily routines that do so much to make easier reading of family history reports written for lay relatives. It should also clarify whether he died alone or with others &c

Nor forget that, right now on the human level, we don't really even know whether he has on duty at the time ... so maybe he just stepped where he shouldn't have when rolling back drunk to his billet with his messmates one blustery night? Life is full of such ironies so, hey, no slight intended by my investigative open-mindedness.

If it's any consolation, BTW, my dad had me dig into one of his cousin's deaths in 1943. The cousin's close family were so distraught that they falsely lionized him with misinformation but I was lucky enough to turn up official documentation debunking all their face-saving lies. The truth was actually quite mundane but I reckon his under-aged enlistment had more than a little to do with that in his prematurely-bereaved parents' eyes!.

Coincidentally, it was only yesterday - Remembrance Day - that I was recalling how many the Pioneer Corps lost clearing up the mess left as late as 1919 after WW1. What struck me there, though, was they seemed to be mainly Chinese dogsbodies in the French cemetery where another of my relatives is buried.

Bon chance, Steve

 

UK, Army Roll of Honour, 1939-1945

Name:Patrick Hoctor
Given Initials:P J
Rank:Private
DeathDate:21 Sep 1945
Number:13118102
BirthPlace:Eire
Residence:Belfast
Branch at Enlistment:Other Corps
Theatre of War:Western Europe Campaign, 1944/45
Regiment at Death:Pioneer Corps
Branch at Death:Other Corps

TD

 

There is a family tree that shows his death as 21 Sep 1945 but no reason for his death

TD

 

How is everyone getting these documents? So interesting. We have always wanted to know the way he died, my father was told he was shot by an American soldier, but who knows.

 

A sudden afterthought, as this technically fell after WW2 censorship, is local rag coverage maybe by refining this simplistic BNA search or checking local library press holdings if yet to be digitised ?

 

His Date of Death was initially recorded as 21/08/45 but corrected on a later Concentration Form as 21/09/45. Died - accident is all it shows. There is another accident death the following day, for a Scots Guardsman, perhaps dying of wounds/injuries from the same incident?

The Concentration Form shows he was moved in 1947, but seems simply to be a re-ordering and regularisation of the grave plots as it doesn't appear to give a different cemetery.

A generalisation, as I have no information or knowledge to base this on, but Pioneers often seem to be somewhat less than A1, having perhaps glasses or other slight medical problems. He was 34, so a touch old for front line duties, but perhaps he had been a labourer or other heavy manual work in civilian life. You'll probably have seen the inscription on his headstone "In memory of a dear husband. Sadly missed by loving wife and family. R.I.P."

There is also the 1939 Register which may show his occupation. Not much help, but his Service Records has to be the way to go to find out more, now there are no longer living relatives who can tell you anything further. We can help with resolving Army shorthand and abbreviations.

As an aside, Hoctor is a fairly unusual name, but there are two other CWGC entries for Hoctor, Bernard, Son of Martin and Frances Hoctor, of Chorlton, Manchester; and Fred Holt Hoctor, Son of Joseph Patrick and Ada Hoctor; husband of Vera Hoctor, of Bredbury, Cheshire.

Could they be related?

 

Can you find his occupation? I’m loving your knowledge

 

Do you have pics of these forms your getting your information from?

 

Gut feel is that Fred Holt Hoctor is not related to this Patrick Joseph Hoctor.
Patrick Joseph Hoctor is born to parents John Joseph Hoctor and Elizabeth, born in Ireland c1911
Fred Holt Hoctor was born to parents Joseph Patrick Hoctor and Ada, born in Ashton, Lancs c1913

Can't trace this guy on the 1939 register, wonder whether he was still in Ireland?

Like Kevin and others have said, service records are the way to go.