THE WAFFEN-SS: Divisional Service History, Brigade/Battalion Unit List + Unit Notes.

Discussion in 'Axis Units' started by Christos, Nov 28, 2007.

  1. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    In 1946, A Soviet train appeared at the Border of the New German East Democratic Republic....The train was full of old women and men, and every one of them was Jewish....
    As the Reich government had done on occasion, The Soviet government was ridding it's regime of unwanted mouths to feed in the hard and lean postwar years...

    A lot of the old Jewish people on this train were DEAD before the train reached Germany....
    Katyn Forrest 1943....Soviet officers of the Secret Services (Organs), the NKVD AND THE RED ARMY execute thousands of Polish officers captured in the previous fighting in Poland. Most are despatchged with a single NAGAN bullet to the back of the head, a style favored by Soviet secret service officers, and buried in mass graves in the Forrest. Blaming this atrocity on the Germans was a natural step for a totalitarian regime as the Soviet's were....
    1945...Supposedly in reprisal for atrocities to Russian civilians (The SOVIETS ought to talk about massacreing RUSSIANS) Red Army Soldiers embark on a three week rampage of rape, murder and looting of the German city of Konigsberg....Soviet authorities, in the grand ol' style, have to execute or deport an umknown number of their own soldiers...Officially, this was to "restore dicipline, but as Alexander Sohlzenytsin records, his arrest and sentencing was in the same period and area, and his only crime was to be separated from his unit, and fail to link up with the basic elements of his artillery brigade......How many other people were simply arrested at the comveniance of the regime?

    And that was not the first time, not by a wide margin...that Soviet authorities had arrested their own people on a QUOTA basis....a quota, yes, simply a number of arrests that the security forces were given that had to be kept for deportation and exile to the nightmare camps of the open steepe country, where the Soviet Union was expanding it's material and resource base, on terrain that had nothing but steppe country. No support facilities in Siberia meant no foriegn investment and the free industrial goodies that that would bring with it...so they shipped prisoners off to icey fields in the middle of a howling steppe, and instruct them to build camps from the materials that had been dumped at railway sidings, no matter what it may cost in prisoner labor...

    The Soviet Great Industrial Move of 1942 was supposedly some kind of 'miricle' achieved by Soviet planners to move a large proportion of heavy indusrial machinery from the Ukraine and the fighting front, to factory areas further East, mainly by rail....The enormous materials needed for this move and the construction of new factory floor space took first priority. People unfortunate enough to be caught up in the move found themselves dumped at these sites in deep Eastern Russia in the same manner that their materials and limited supplys were...at a point on the railway with nothing but open 'steppe' to greet them on arrival.....tens of thousands of these people died...but the factories were built, often by workers who had not started on shelter for themselves....


    There remain many atrocities to uncover in WWII.....and not all of them were AXIS....but wait!....werent the RUSSIANs part of the AXIS at the beginning of the war?....There would not have even been a world War II without the Nazi- Soviet Pact of 1939......think on that one!
    Christos, first of all the Russians never joined the Axis side, they had a non-agression pact with Germany.
    Secondly the Katyn massacre was exposed as a Russian Atrocity and in the war in the East no-one side can claim the moral high ground. In relation to the Sacking and pillaging of Koenigsberg yes it was a terrible thing, indeed the entire State of Prussia was sacked and looted but before you start judging the Russians please remember that at no stage was there a systematic plan to wipe the German race off the face of the earth. The Germans had atrocities committed against them but they opened the pandora's box on 22nd june 1941 and as the saying goes "you reap what you sow".

    Its difficult for Westerners to perceive the Eastern Conflict from a moral standpoint. It wasnt a war like any other. The Germans unleashed Barbarossa upon the Soviet Union because they wanted to wipe it out. The Soviets were not just fighting for their freedom, they were fighting for their lives. When the Russians were able to push out the Germans they were determined to avenge all that had happened for the previous 3 years.

    Its not as easy as saying "They were right". Its too complicated for that.
     
  2. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    my mate fought ss troops in normandy and reckons the ss were not an elite they were blown to bits when counterattacking,he reckons they normally just jogged back expecting you to put your hands up,the vickers opened up from the flanks,then his section opened up with bren and accurate rifle fire,this all before the shells and mortars.he says the normal german soldiers were much different,he knew about the human slaughter houses in europe before 44 too.but he says the ss made bloody good slit trenches in the hedges.he,s bringing me up a couple of rabbits in the week,i will see if i can more info off him,he is usually quiet about the war though.yours,lee.
     
  3. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Recent reading's confirming that everyone was blown to bits during Normandy counterattacks, seems to be when casualties were heaviest on both sides.

    There's an interesting point of view that the often much admired German doctrine of immediate counterattack while fine during the offensive years may well have been what whittled away so efficiently at their numbers during the defensive period.
     
  4. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Sapper can confirm this but as I recall reading all sides suffered due to the vicious fighting and the terrain especially the Bocage, making it somewhat like a WW1 style environment.
     
  5. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    i was reading a book earlier this week that says at no time during the normandy campaign did british 2nd army have more than a 2;1 advantage in infantry over the german army.most generals believe a 3;1 advantage when attacking is required to win most set piece battles,which is all the more remarkable when we know that 2nd army was attacking very well dug in enemy and truely horrible terrain.yours,lee.off to empty my leg bag.
     
  6. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    Ummm just WHAT do you call SWALLOWING UP HALF OF POLAND....I would say thats a pretty "AXISEY" thing to do....


    AND while we are here...it's a matter of record the the German infantry 'edge ' was eroded....no argument there.....no time to train the nebees.....happens to all defeated armies....you know, If 4th Wilts actually read the article posted here he might realkize that he doesnt need to slag of anybody....

    I've already done that....

    4th Wilts....think again...I actually care what you think, you know!
     
  7. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Nazi-Soviet Pact

    This pretty much explains that the Soviet Union did NOT join the Axis, Christos. They signed a pact with the Germans just prior to invading Poland and yes they carved up Poland and also Stalin had a free rein in the Baltic states. At no point were Russia and Japan allies. Indeed its was during the time of the Nazi-Soviet Pact that the Japanese attacked the Soviet Union on the Manchurian Border and following the battle of Khalkin Gol (where Zhukov made his name) the Japanese never threatened Russia again. So whilst dividing Poland (as you say) might have been an Axisey thing to do, it actually wasnt very Axisey at all!
     
  8. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    The Soviet invasion of Poland was nothing to do with the Axis, it was a move out of total self interest.
     
  9. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    Self interest or not, it still did nothing to help Poland, thats for sure, and the Baltic states went as well......I don't think Stalin had any intention of actually JOINING the Axis...but he certainly didn't make things harder for them either, what with the Russian deliveries of oil and grain when the rest of the USSR is scrambling for food?....Stalin comes off as being a hypocritical, too, when he was negotiating with SS GENERAL KARL WOLF about a possible early end and a compromise finish to the fighting, that, when you look at the situation, did not really look that good for the Soviets in summer-autumn 1941...

    Who said anything about them joining the Axis anyway...until Barbarossa they were already part of it!
     
  10. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    Just want to thank you all for your posts once again....and to 4th Wilts, who, in retrospect, kept the debate going with well timed comments...I look forward to hearing from him again!

    Thanks Lee!
     
  11. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Self interest or not, it still did nothing to help Poland, thats for sure, and the Baltic states went as well......I don't think Stalin had any intention of actually JOINING the Axis...but he certainly didn't make things harder for them either, what with the Russian deliveries of oil and grain when the rest of the USSR is scrambling for food?....Stalin comes off as being a hypocritical, too, when he was negotiating with SS GENERAL KARL WOLF about a possible early end and a compromise finish to the fighting, that, when you look at the situation, did not really look that good for the Soviets in summer-autumn 1941...

    Who said anything about them joining the Axis anyway...until Barbarossa they were already part of it!
    I'm sorry Christos but the Soviet Union was not part of the Axis, they never signed anything with Italy or Japan who were joint members. They signed a non-agression pact with the Third Reich and not with anyone else. As I've told you already if they were part of the Axis forces they would have not fought the Japanese. I've no problem if you can show me proof that Russia was part of it but unfortunately the invasion of Poland was not.

    As for Stalin being hypocrtritical well homw? He was a dictator who craved power - of course he would try and make a peace deal. He wasnt aware of course that Hitler was intent on destroying the Russian People not just the Soviet Union
     
  12. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    Look, I really think it's a moot point whether they were 'on-paper' part of thew axis or not...

    The POINT is they assisted Germany a whole lot morew in a short space of time than so called Allies like Italy that succeeded in economically dragging the war effort down for the Axis....I think its ssplitting hairs to point to this over and over....Stalin was not a naive fool either...he knew all the
    Pact would do is buy time...do you honestly think a butcher like SAtalin would not be aware of German intentions for a defeated Soviet Union....

    He would be naive mto think that they planned anything but total slavery for the slavic peoples....

    Stalin knew that as much as anyone....he had committed an atrocity or to...takes one tyrant to know another...bothe of them cancelled each other out in the end, with the Soviets going down to the Cold War as well....They should have stayed out of it!
     
  13. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    Hasn't this been a great thread? (big smile)
     
  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    They should have stayed out of it!

    How could they when they were invaded on 22nd June 1941?
     
  15. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    Well, they could have stretched the negotiations out by offering Germany direct military assistance, which they were doing, in effect if not in actuality alread...

    Hey Owen...can I post more on the Lufwaffe losses?...I want to do the lot, all of them.....will it fit in one thread ?
     
  16. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    Look, I really think it's a moot point whether they were 'on-paper' part of thew axis or not...

    The POINT is they assisted Germany a whole lot morew in a short space of time than so called Allies like Italy that succeeded in economically dragging the war effort down for the Axis....I think its ssplitting hairs to point to this over and over....Stalin was not a naive fool either...he knew all the
    Pact would do is buy time...do you honestly think a butcher like SAtalin would not be aware of German intentions for a defeated Soviet Union....

    He would be naive mto think that they planned anything but total slavery for the slavic peoples....

    Stalin knew that as much as anyone....he had committed an atrocity or to...takes one tyrant to know another...bothe of them cancelled each other out in the end, with the Soviets going down to the Cold War as well....They should have stayed out of it!
    The reason I told you again and again that they werent part of the Axis was because you kept saying it!!! I dont like repeating myself but when you keep saying something thats not right I'm going to say so!! Indeed you made up a new verb in your reference to it ,being Axisy!!! LOL! So I was merely reminding you of that. I dont know what you mean about "They should have stayed out of it". Are you referring to World War II. If so there was nothing the Russians could have done about that, they were invaded!!! If you mean the Cold War, well it did take 30 years or so for them to lose!!

    I have no doubt that Stalin was a monster and his regime was an evil one. But lets not forget the fact that it was an Allied effort that destroyed the Third Reich and the Red Army was a central part of that struggle. It seems frm your posts that you are enthusiastic about letting us know that the Russians committed atrocities as well as the Germans, that no-one was innocent. That is true but please remember that there was one nation that was the aggressor, one nation whose lunatic leader had a monstrous vision and who almost took the Continent of Europe down with him and it wasnt Stalin.
     
  17. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    in my stupidity,was there not a command that originated from the german high command,which said something like,this is not only a war of conquest,but also a war where no compassion can be given to soviet soldiers or civilians.i dont have any books near me at this time,so please feel free to correct me about this.if this subject has been touched upon in this thread,you may also correct me and tell me how silly i am,as i already know that i do not know much about the war anyway.yours,lee.
     
  18. Christos

    Christos Discharged

    Oh golly gosh....

    What if Russia had chosen to help the AXIS directly with troops and aircraft?....They could have switched sides at any time in a very Orwellian manner..

    And yes, I also thought that "Axisy" was a new one even as I typed it out....

    Lee is right...it WAS a war of annhilalation, but both sides knew that before the first shot was fired...Soviet treatment of German prisoners is no better than German treatment of soviet...
     
  19. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

  20. 4th wilts

    4th wilts Discharged

    again,i dont have any books in my vicnity,its pretty hard to get them stuck in my wheelchair,but it may have been goering or the chap in charge of the wermacht,i am probably wrong though,as usual.yours,lee.
     

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