Sorry for ugly topic about mutilation

Discussion in 'Historiography' started by arnhem44, Apr 25, 2014.

  1. arnhem44

    arnhem44 Member

    Sorry for an ugly mutilations topic..but it has been bugging me for some time.
    I only seek information about its historic origins (if ever) and about its psychology.

    Ever since I read books of wars , be it WW2 west and pacific, WW1, Vietnam, Indonesia independence fight, colonial independence wars in Africa , today's Afghanistan and Syria, I ALWAYS read an account of male victims whose genitalia have been cut off , and maybe placed here or there or thrown away.
    Obviously it has been done by the (rebel but not always) force that really hated the force to which the victim belonged to.

    I always thought it was a "modern" thing (20th century), but recently I read in a historical magazine that in one of the Welsh-English wars (around 1000 AD?) after a battle that the welsh won, the welsh women (!!) cut off the genitalia of a number of English slain men.

    So it seems as if it is of "all times".


    My question is:
    1) Is it of all times ? What is the earliest recording of such a mutilation event ?
    2) How come that a warrior man that hates the other tribe or unit , so much that he would not accept a truce, or ever make peace, or ever would sit and drink a beer to toast at the end of fights, in short ever would touch that man; why would that (disgusted) man be able to take down the pants of a slain and bloodied and dirty smelling opponent and touch his genitalia and cut it off ?
    Compare to the nowadays muslim fanatics who do these ugly things in Syria today ; you proclaim all Christians to be filthy, and yet you dare to touch them?
    It doesn't make sense.
    3) Where do the mostly illiterate rebels get this idea from and why are they happy to copy it ? The indonesian rebels certainly would not have read about it in 1948, so it either must have been instructed by the japanese occupying forces, or it must have evolved from the muslim traditional rebel background. But how come it spreads out on a large scale?
     
  2. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    It was done in eg Ancient Egypt - to count the number of vanquished, as proof for payment.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah
    "His majesty was enraged at their report, like a lion," assembled his court and gave a rousing speech. Later, he dreamed he saw Ptah handing him a sword and saying, "Take thou (it) and banish thou the fearful heart from thee." When the bowmen went forth, says the inscription, "Amun was with them as a shield." After six hours, the surviving Nine Bows threw down their weapons, abandoned their baggage and dependents, and ran for their lives. Merneptah states that he defeated the invasion, killing 6,000 soldiers and taking 9,000 prisoners. To be sure of the numbers, among other things, he took the penises of all uncircumcised enemy dead and the hands of all the circumcised, from which history learns that the Ekwesh were circumcised, a fact causing some to doubt they were Greek."

    http://www.livescience.com/22267-severed-hands-ancient-egypt-palace.html

    There are images of carvings
    http://www.timetrips.co.uk/e33.jpg
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnbeton/257426165/

    and there's this blog on the subject
    http://darkandbizaarestories.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/phallotomy-penis-as-trophy.html

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Samuel+18:25-27


    Mutilating the dead is a final insult really, an act showing contempt, and a warning to those who find the bodies - this could happen to you. I don't see it as being learned from any particular culture. Mutilation of the living as a very graphic warning to others, and castration, even during execution, was practised in many countries
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wallace#Capture_and_execution
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castration
     
  3. TriciaF

    TriciaF Junior Member

    An earlier report is in commentaries on the Old Testament.
    In Exodus 17:8 Amalek kills the stragglers leaving Egypt.
    In the recounting of this story in Deuteronomy 26 17-18 Rashi comments that Amalek's troups mutilated their victims in the way you describe. Based on writings of the early times.
     
  4. The Cooler King

    The Cooler King Elite Member

    The vast majority of people on the forum I would suggest are familiar with the Japanese atrocities in WW2 but very few I would suspect are aware that American servicemen in the Pacific mutilated Japanese soldiers i.e took trophy Skulls amd hung heads from trees etc.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Hesmond

    Hesmond Well-Known Member

    As previous the mutilation of a beaten foe be he dead or alive as detailed elsewhere is as old as warfare it self , be it for religious purposes or as a weapon to strike fear in to a enemy or for money purposes (proof of killing to collect payment) some other well detailed events are the mutilation of archers after the fall of Sossions in the 100 Years War , the 30 Years War ,Aztec Wars in South America, well detailed after the Sand Creek massacre and not forgetting 19th century wars such as South Africa 1879 and the odd event on the North West Frontier , oh and 18th century wars in Canada , one post death body part use was on a aircraft carrier hit by a Kamikaze was when the pilots leg was removed from the crash ,his bone was taken by some engineers who on a lathe turned out a business converting the leg in to rings! This also occurred during the Indian Mutiny when Mutineers skulls were cleaned and converted in to cigar boxes , one came to auction in the early 1970s and I expect a few put away in old collections .
    Then we have the SAS soldiers who were captured ,tortured and killed in the Rafdan in the 1960s whose body parts were removed .
     
    dbf likes this.
  6. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

  7. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    [​IMG]
    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sP8LAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA217&lpg=PA217&dq=ter+circum+iliacos+raptaverat+hectora+muros&source=bl&ots=HqGwEa_6X5&sig=WA649bVW538VwREYRkukdxrxsBA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0LxeU9zRFcPBPJqFgegB&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=ter%20circum%20iliacos%20raptaverat%20hectora%20muros&f=false

    http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/iliad/section12.rhtml

     
  8. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YChnMKeLjBkC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&dq=english+civil+war+castration&source=bl&ots=uFl9n2ANTd&sig=Cfhhhm8J6nVY2SwUAbocWDeD1qg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=I75eU5rwJs67PcGZgDA&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=english%20civil%20war%20castration&f=false

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Disasters_of_War


    http://www.medievalwarfare.info/torture.htm#hdq
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_mutilation_in_Byzantine_culture
     
  9. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trophy_collecting

    And from Herodotus,

    Lovely, eh?
     

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