Russians POW rather died than go home.

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by Owen, Apr 6, 2006.

  1. AMVAS

    AMVAS Senior Member

    deleted duplicate
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    A brief offtop.
    On avatar of T-34
    [​IMG]
    one can see a flag of so called "National-Bolshevik" party.
    Its flag is conjugation of Nazi and Soviet symbols. (Nazi-type flag with Soviet sickle and hammer inside instead of fylfot)
    I'm not too expereienced in their ideology, but I can say it's quite a radical party. Many processes were performed here for their illegal actions.
    On the West such sort of parties is called "Ultras".
    I can't say in what relation "T-34" is with this party, but usage of its flag for avatar indirectly shows his point of view on the subject....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bolshevik_Party
     
  3. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    ... What we were talking here...was how sorry we were for the Red Army soldiers who were so badly treated by their top authorities...

    you're naive beyond belief.
    first off,
    red army soldiers were not a wusses that seek your sympathy.
    secondly,
    red army was not devided into ludicrous: ''soldiers'' and '' their top authorities'' that treat those soldiers ''badly''.
    all in all, red army was one whole.
     
  4. AMVAS

    AMVAS Senior Member

    ...
    red army was not devided into ludicrous: ''soldiers'' and '' their top authorities'' that treat those soldiers ''badly''.
    all in all, red army was one whole.

    Sorry to say, but some sort of commanders were too low educated to treat their soldiers properly. That was the reason of heavy casaulities in the Red Army in 1941-42 and even later. When we say about bad planning of operations of the RKKA in the same period, we also can remember about lack of skills of our generals.
    Also we can't forget about political authorities such as Stalin, who are responsible much for strategical losses of RKKA in 1941-42.
    It's not right to blame only Stalin for those, but his role can't be diminished here...
     
  5. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    ... it is a cultural thing...

    exactly!
    and, the difference between russia and the west is not only ''cultural'', but -''civilisational'' as well.

    as for me,
    i only want the west to stop being so agressive towards other cultures/civilisations.
     
  6. CTNana

    CTNana Member Patron

    exactly!
    and, the difference between russia and the west is not only ''cultural'', but -''civilisational'' as well..

    Your source????


    .......as for me,
    i only want the west to stop being so agressive towards other cultures/civilisations.

    Never too good at history but.....
    Hungary???
    Czechoslovakia???
    Afghanistan????
    Chechnya????
    immediately spring to mind!!!!!

    I also (and zillions of others) want every nation to stop acts of aggression both to other nations and maybe even more its own peoples.

    Why can't people "live and let live"? I have no problem with race, gender, colour, creed or any of the wonderful things that make us different EXCEPT those who would silence opposition. We HAVE to be openminded about the information available to us in so many formats and use our intellect and judgement to determine the truth of any situation.

    So please don't denigrate these posters for their honest attempts to research, question and advise the rest of us of the sometimes lesser known information that they have found.

    CTNana
     
  7. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    ...commanders were too low educated to treat their soldiers properly...lack of skills of our generals...
    Stalin...responsible much for strategical losses of RKKA in 1941-42...

    dear sir!
    may i remind you that not only red army commanders were ''low educated'', but its soldiers - were ''low educated'' too.

    lest you forget that then soviet people were not a ''nation'' yet, and russia herself - had just recovered from repercussions of the civil war caused by the revolution.

    lest you forget that the red army was not an army of professionals, quite contrary - it was an army of workers and peasants.
    so - what skills you talking about?!

    also, you don't seem to remember that nazis attacked all of the sudden, with no war declared - thus breaching the so-called molotov/ribbentrop pact.
    (for allies it took years to get themselves prepared for involvement in ww2).

    as for stalin:
    frankly - he saved russia.
    he saved russia by conducting the necessary purges that eliminated traitors from red army headquarters.
    he stopped red army fleeing from wehrmacht's onslaught by issuing an order to presume all those who give themselves up to nazis - traitors.
    and finally,
    he managed to create the nation out of workers and peasants and other scum that civil war and revolution left at his disposal.
     
  8. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    i only want the west to stop being so agressive towards other cultures/civilisations.

    Crazy, for sure! Who's being aggressive the entire thread? Ridiculous.

    Anyway, as they say...

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    T-34.
    Please stop swearing on the Forum.
    Stop telling me how I view Russians.

    T-34(for allies it took years to get themselves prepared for involvement in ww2)
    Remember that Great Britain declared war on Germany in 1939 whilst Nazi Germany and their Soviet mates were carving up Poland.
     
  10. AMVAS

    AMVAS Senior Member

    Your source????

    Never too good at history but.....
    Hungary???
    Czechoslovakia???
    Afghanistan????
    Chechnya????
    immediately spring to mind!!!!!

    I also (and zillions of others) want every nation to stop acts of aggression both to other nations and maybe even more its own peoples.


    I wouldn't collect these territories in one listing.
    Reasons for operations of Soviet (Russian) troops in those were absolutely different and I wouldn't use term "agression" in those cases either :mad111:

    In any case, this is odd offtop to discuss those events in this thread...
     
  11. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Good point Alex.
    Back to Soviet POW discussion, please.
    I include myself in that too.
     
  12. AMVAS

    AMVAS Senior Member

    dear sir!
    may i remind you that not only red army commanders were ''low educated'', but its soldiers - were ''low educated'' too.


    Yes, but on high level it was more significant to have educated commanders.
    Because in the case of strategic operations skills of soldiers are much less important than skills of commanders.
    One badly prepared commander can be responsible for the death of thousands of excellent soldiers.
    In the first period of the war one could see very poorly prepared operations where lost of Soviet soldiers were lost.
    The year 1941 was the continuous chain of catastrophes.
    I can remind you heavy losses in Byelorussia (3rd,10th armies were surrounded and 4th had large causalities), Ukraine (5,6,12,21,26,37th Armies....).
    On the NW direction 8th & 11th Armies lost large percent of their staff as well.
    On the southern direction the 18th Army had much causalities in surrounding.
    In Smolensk battle, the 13rd,16th,19th, 20th Armies had large losses in Mogilev and Smolensk surroundings
    And the heaviest catastrophe of the Western front in oct. 1941, where 16th,19th,20th,32nd Armies were lost in surrounding and the 3rd and 50th luckily escaped from surrounding with heavy losses.
    Many other armies got very heavy causalities as well... Who do you think were responsible for those losses? Soldiers????

    In 1941 the pre-war Army of the USSR was totally destroyed on the whole soviet-German Front! Regular pre-war units were replaced by units formed while mobilization. The initially were less powerful than regular ones.

    lest you forget that then soviet people were not a ''nation'' yet, and russia herself - had just recovered from repercussions of the civil war caused by the revolution.


    No, I didn't forget about this. But after revolution and Civil war the USSR had about 20 years for building its Army. Very large percent of economical power of the state was used for building of the Soviet armed forces. The USSR had more than 10,000 airplanes and more than 20,000 tanks. Of course, not only planes and tanks makes the power of an army. But this shows that attention, the Soviet leaders paid to the army. Soviet industry in 1930s was in times more powerful than before 1917
    Resuming this I can say that in comparison with pre-revolution years the USSR had only its fleet less powerful than in WWI times. Other weaponry was enough competitive in comparison with German analogues.
    You also forgot about repressions of 1937-38, which annihilated the most experienced Soviet commanders. Those, who changed them in many times had great fear of making mistake, which can be mortal for themselves.

    lest you forget that the red army was not an army of professionals, quite contrary - it was an army of workers and peasants.
    so - what skills you talking about?!

    And what after this declaration?
    If great number of soviet commanders was not from professional military families it’s fault of the soviet leaders, who annihilated all the pre-revolution Russian army and later also almost annihilated the residuals of old Russian officer corps.
    In 1930s the RKKA was trained enough well, but repressions of 1930s removed large percent of commanders from it.
    Also the large growth of the army size led to strong dilution of experienced staff. Soviet pre-war units always had lack of command staff, because growth of its soldier bulk couldn’t be followed with equivalent growth of even inexperienced command staff!

    also, you don't seem to remember that nazis attacked all of the sudden, with no war declared - thus breaching the so-called molotov/ribbentrop pact.
    (for allies it took years to get themselves prepared for involvement in ww2).


    Old song…

    And have you answered to yourself to one question: “How could Hitler so secretly concentrated more than one half of his army on our borders and nobody noticed this?”
    For myself I already answered to this. The concentration of German troops was not secret to the Soviet high command. Moreover, the day of attack was known. But there were no political will to prepare Soviet troops. And personally Stalin and Soviet General Staff were responsible for this.
    Yes, they received many contradictive data from our Intelligence, which could be treated from different sides. But at least they could change configuration of troops deployed in organic “pockets” of the border. As a result the Soviet troops were not prepared neither to attack, nor to defend.
    Also you can’t explain catastrophes of Kiev surrounding (Sept. 1941), Vyazma surrounding (Oct. 1941), Catastrophe of the South-Western direction on summer 1942, Catastrophe of the Crimean Front (May 1942) by “sudden attack in 1941”
    For those catastrophes the Soviet High Command are responsible (including Stalin and General Staff)

    as for stalin:
    frankly - he saved russia.
    he saved russia by conducting the necessary purges that eliminated traitors from red army headquarters.
    he stopped red army fleeing from wehrmacht's onslaught by issuing an order to presume all those who give themselves up to nazis - traitors.
    and finally,
    he managed to create the nation out of workers and peasants and other scum that civil war and revolution left at his disposal.

    Not everything is so simple for Stalin.
    From one hand his strong will joint the country around him and directed all Soviet resources for resistance.
    BUT from another hand at the same time we can’t forget about 1 million of collaborators.
    How came so many Russians found themselves on the opposite side?
    You remembered the order of Stalin to treat all POWs as traitors. This criminal (yes, criminal!) order played VERY negative role in the history of the WWII for our country! Nazis were very thankful for “Uncle Joe” for such a brilliant gift! It helped much them to recruit newbies in Vlassov’s army!
    Also we could remember very famous order No. 227 published in 1942 which had to stop further retreat of the Red Army using very severe means. But it appeared RKKA to retreat to the Caucasus and Stalingrad after this.
    The nation of workers and peasants is myth. In the USSR there was built such a community, where preferences had people, originated from those classes. This opened large perspectives for many people from the lower classes. But at the same time it reduced the role of the most educated people of the country, which naturally originated from former nobility and intellectuals.
    Also repressions of 1930s born such a horrible thing as modern slavery, when in hundreds of GULAG camps millions of prisoners were fulfilling projects of “the Great Leader”.
    Returning to peasants. Stalin almost annihilated this class in its classical form. Making kolkhoz system was mortal for peasantry. History showed all defects of this system and no need to return to this subject.
     
  13. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Alex,
    How do you remain so patient and calm?
    I find it ironic that the person who has tested you so much isn't a right-wing Westerner but a fellow Muscovite!
    A year ago most of that information you posted above would have been over my head but now after looking into Russia's War more than I ever had before I actually understand what you are saying.
     
  14. AMVAS

    AMVAS Senior Member

    Alex,
    How do you remain so patient and calm?


    I have much experience talking with different persons..
    Among them I oculd see much crazy ones...
    My experience tells me the largest percent of those among my oppnents are among Poles... Crazy nation...:) (However I know some enough adequate Poles...)

    I find it ironic that the person who has tested you so much isn't a right-wing Westerner but a fellow Muscovite!


    Don't worry... We have enough folks, which are not adequate.
    They even writes books in large series where (with large mistakes) tries to prove their own versions of history...
    So, take this easy...

    A year ago most of that information you posted above would have been over my head but now after looking into Russia's War more than I ever had before I actually understand what you are saying.

    glad to hear my efforts are not wasted... :D

    Regards,
    Alex
     
  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Going back to repatriated Soviet-POWs, have you any stories of post-war life for them?
    Did many regain the trust of the Party once they'd been returned to the USSR?
     
  16. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    ... in the case of strategic operations skills of soldiers are much less important than skills of commanders...

    you might not know, so let me enlighten you as to the warfare is only 10% of a strategy and 90% of a bloody massacre!
    the wars are won not by those who's good at strategy,
    but by those who is best at killing.
    especially, in case you counteract the best army of all times - the army of wehrmacht.
    so, the soldier's skill is more important than that of a commander.

    ... after revolution and Civil war the USSR had about 20 years for building its Army...weaponry was enough competitive in comparison with German analogues...You also forgot about repressions of 1937-38, which annihilated the most experienced Soviet commanders...

    15 years is not enough time to build the military spirit.
    ...
    most experienced soviet commanders ''annihilated''?
    and what was their experience, exept for loosing every campaign they were entrusted with?!

    ... If great number of soviet commanders was not from professional military families it’s fault of the soviet leaders, who annihilated all the pre-revolution Russian army and later also almost annihilated the residuals of old Russian officer corps...

    stalin's not resposible for that.
    later on, stalin ''annihilated'' such bolshevik leaders as trotski, zinoviev, bukharin - thus, those oppressed by them were avenged.

    ...“How could Hitler so secretly concentrated more than one half of his army on our borders and nobody noticed this?” For myself I already answered to this. The concentration of German troops was not secret to the Soviet high command. Moreover, the day of attack was known. But there were no political will to prepare Soviet troops...

    what you mean by: ''no political will...''?
    i already told you - the soviet union and nazis had non-agression pact signed etc.!
    read my posts, mate...

    ... 1 million of collaborators.
    How came so many Russians found themselves on the opposite side?...

    it ''came'' the same way as many of the french, for instance, ''found'' themselves collaborating nazis in vichy france.
    but...
    hey mister!
    what are trying to prove by your hysterical insinuations?!

    ... peasants. Stalin almost annihilated this class in its classical form. Making kolkhoz system was mortal for peasantry...

    collective farming was the last attempt to reform russian agriculture sector which was everlasting problem in russia since the days of old.
     
  17. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Masterfully put, Alex.

    "In Internet terminology, a troll is someone who intentionally posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait users into responding", in Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    [​IMG]

    you might not know, so let me enlighten you as to the strategy is only 10% of a warfare and 90% of a bloody massacre!
    the wars are won not by those who's good at strategy,
    but by those who is best at killing.
    especially, in case you counteract the best army of all times - the army of wehrmacht.
    so, the soldier's skill is more important than that of a commander.

    This is absolutely basic and ignorant. It's stupid wasting time any longer with characters like these. I'm leaving this thread.
     
  18. AMVAS

    AMVAS Senior Member

    you might not know, so let me enlighten you as to the warfare is only 10% of a strategy and 90% of a bloody massacre!
    the wars are won not by those who's good at strategy,
    but by those who is best at killing.
    especially, in case you counteract the best army of all times - the army of wehrmacht.
    so, the soldier's skill is more important than that of a commander.


    Let ME enlighten YOU if you are so stubborn not to see evedent things...
    If commander is so stupid to send his "super-soldiers" over machine-guns and all sorts of fortifications wthout special means (smoke screens, artillery bombardement et.al.) even if his unit 100% consists of supermen it will be certainly destroyed.
    Experience of soldiers is good thing, nothing to argue here. but commanders experience is more important by all means...


    15 years is not enough time to build the military spirit.
    ...


    Russian military spirit existed for 1,000 years... So, it doesnn't start from the year 1917

    most experienced soviet commanders ''annihilated''?
    and what was their experience, exept for loosing every campaign they were entrusted with?!



    I meant those, who won the Civil war...
    They opposed to Russian professional officers in the White Army, btw... And they ought to get much experience in that fights....

    stalin's not resposible for that.
    later on, stalin ''annihilated'' such bolshevik leaders as trotski, zinoviev, bukharin - thus, those oppressed by them were avenged.


    No, it's JUST Stalin to be personally responsibel for repressions agasitn such a commanders as Tukhachevskiy, Blyukher, Yegorov, and many others...
    Almost all the head of the RKKA was repressed

    what you mean by: ''no political will...''?
    i already told you - the soviet union and nazis had non-agression pact signed etc.!
    read my posts, mate...


    I mean that all the signals about German preparations for attack from the border districts were neglected by political peremptory shouts from the upper level: "Do nothing, don't give cause for the war"...
    As a result German airplanes could make photos of all the border territory of the USSR by hundred km in depth.
    German officers could make recon acting under legend of "searching for WWI cemestries"...and many other stupid things was done that time...
    Btw, to move depots close to the border was political decision, but not military...
    The pact was important thing, but it couldn’t approve that “razdolbaistvo” (in English it can be translated as a extreme degree of stupidity) what took place in our western districts prior to the war!!!
    “Want peace – prepare to the war”. Nobody can reject this phrase.
    Our politicians and military services were not prepared to the war. And the first one to be responsible for this was Stalin!

    it ''came'' the same way as many of the french, for instance, ''found'' themselves collaborating nazis in vichy france.


    Yes, in France and some other countries we could also see collaborators, but not so much percent from POWs.

    but...
    hey mister!
    what are trying to prove by your hysterical insinuations?!


    “hysterical”??? where you see them???
    It’s you to provide old myths of Soviet propaganda and non-confirmed statements!

    collective farming was the last attempt to reform russian agriculture sector which was everlasting problem in russia since the days of old.

    Aja… really so (ironically)
    That’s why in early 1900s Russia export cereals to half a Europe and in 1960s-80s import millions of tons…
    No, Russian agriculture in 1900s was quite competitive. But after collectivization it became in such a poor state that until now we can’t fix all the circumstances of this stupid policy!
     
  19. AMVAS

    AMVAS Senior Member

    Going back to repatriated Soviet-POWs, have you any stories of post-war life for them?
    Did many regain the trust of the Party once they'd been returned to the USSR?

    Until late 1950s the life of former POWs was enough bad.
    A part of them was convicted and spend time in GULAG camps.
    Another part, who managed to prove themselves not to help Nazis (it was enough hard to pruve this to NKVD, but I know cases when people managed to do it) was living by ordinary life, but also had some troubles, because every form, they needed to fill for employers had special string: "Was you on occupied territory, or not"...

    Since ~1956 everything changed and former POWs were not the subject of repressions, but they still tried not to declare their life as a POWs
     
  20. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Thanks for that Alex,
    Can we keep this thread on-topic now, please.
    Soviet POW or this,
    [​IMG]
     

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