Russians POW rather died than go home.

Discussion in 'The Eastern Front' started by Owen, Apr 6, 2006.

  1. CTNana

    CTNana Member Patron

    the ''information'' needs no ''correction'', since - it is not an information at all.
    the thing you call 'information'' here, is in fact - a mere assertion that western propoganda ever feels comfortable with.
    Hi
    I am intrigued. Did I lose the thread? Are you suggesting that no anecdotal evidence is ever true?

    What is truth? Arguably the most filmed (both official and unofficial) and witnessed crime was the assassination of President Kennedy and yet there are many versions as to the truth of what happened.

    Perhaps if we had "listened" to the early "unsubstantiated evidence" from Germany many lives could have been spared.

    Why would the west choose to use indidents, which also show us unfavourably, as propaganda?

    Have I misunderstood what you meant?
    CTNana
     
  2. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    ... Are you suggesting that no anecdotal evidence is ever true?...


    exactly.
    especially those evidences, that contain insults and portray other nation as hordes of morons, drunkards etc. - because the main purpose of such ''evidences'' is to downplay other nation's achievements.


    ... Perhaps if we had "listened" to the early "unsubstantiated evidence" from Germany many lives could have been spared...

    the west "listens" only when it is interested to.
    for instance, how comes that it's only now that the west ''found out'' about so-called ''stalin's crimes''?
    why, at the moment when it needed stalin, it kept silent as to his ''regime''?
    and why the west is still waging a ''cold war'' against russia nowadays?
     
  3. AMVAS

    AMVAS Senior Member

    as a fact,
    stories - that begin with the words ''i heard'' are very ''believable'' for the westerners.
    because - stories like that is complete bollocks!
    but, the westerners just love to believe them.



    Just for you specification from where I heard it.
    It was broadcast of Russian military TV channel "Zvezda", which can't be blamed for non-patriotism ;)
    And I'm more informed what number of morons were in the Red Army even if wish to show the opposit thing...

    In TsAMO documents my friend could find many funny (and not very funny) stories...

    Just one especially for you.
    From explanation of one commander, why he couldn't take a village:
    "We couldn't take that village because there were shooting"...
    Any army has own morons, so lets not to show the Soviet one, as the clearest....

    i.m.o.
    the red army was not a perfection itself, of course, but bunch of morons it was not.

    As you could see I avoid generalizations and speak about specific cases....
    Perfectly it was not a bunch of morons. But SOME stupid persons and criminals could be found...

    one, who tells the sourceless stories like that - should be ashamed the same they as those who eagerly trust them.

    I wouldn't tell this story sourceless...
     
  4. AMVAS

    AMVAS Senior Member

    ************************************************
    A brief specification for our foreign community:

    It was separate recon company of the 108th Rifle Corps. (Capt. S.A. Kalmykov).
    The house was palced in the northwern part of Reugen between
    Warnkevitz and Putgarten (Spelling?) settlements.

    That moron major I spoke about was Major Gavrilets Vasily Yurjevitch - commander of the 137th Tank Battalion/90th Rifle Division

    Full article in Russian you can read here
    "Rodina" Magazine 5/2006

    It contains references to original archival sources...

    What other prooves do you need for clarification of this episode???
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Alex,
    Thank you for educating your fellow Russian.
    Whether T-34 listens to you is up to them.
    So much better for you to give sources and stories as whenever we reply to T-34 we are accused of being Western and anti-Soviet.
    T-34 never makes positive points or tells us about their family's WW2 experiences, just spouts anti-Western sentiments.

    T-34
    especially those evidences, that contain insults and portray other nation as hordes of morons, drunkards etc. - because the main purpose of such ''evidences'' is to downplay other nation's achievements

    I could cite many examples of the love of strong alcohol by Soviet soldiers from the book Ivan's War I have just read. Including soldiers who died by drinking anti-freeze etc
    Many of the stories come from Soviet archives but as the book is written by a Western Woman, I can imagine T-34 that you wouldn't believe them anyway.
    T-34, never, ever have we tried to downplay the Red Army's part in WW2.
    Actually alot of us are amazed that the Red Army continued fighting after such terrible losses in 1941 and went on to become the formidable war machine that it was.

    We have many threads here that discuss the Red Army so why not join in with them rather than continue this anti-Western rant?
     
  6. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    Just for you specification from where I heard it. It was broadcast of Russian military TV channel "Zvezda...
    ... Any army has own morons, so lets not to show the Soviet one, as the clearest...As you could see I avoid generalizations and speak about specific cases...

    1. tv channels whatever they are - is not a reliable source.
    documents is only source one can trust.

    2. morons or not, for the red army morons weren't any problem.
    russians destroyed up to 78% of nazi military and that's the main point.
    so, the victors are not to be judged, mate.
    to judge the victors, means - showing a bad taste, after all.
     
  7. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

  8. AMVAS

    AMVAS Senior Member

    Alex,
    Thank you for educating your fellow Russian.
    Whether T-34 listens to you is up to them.
    So much better for you to give sources and stories as whenever we reply to T-34 we are accused of being Western and anti-Soviet.
    T-34 never makes positive points or tells us about their family's WW2 experiences, just spouts anti-Western sentiments.


    If to follow T-34s avatar, he's young radical.
    Such sort of people are very patriotical, but often very low educated and not much polite. Loud declarations can't compensate lack of reliable info from their side.
     
  9. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    ... book Ivan's War ...
    Many of the stories come from Soviet archives but as the book is written by a Western Woman...
    Actually alot of us are amazed that the Red Army continued fighting after such terrible losses in 1941 and went on to become the formidable war machine that it was...

    oh my god!
    that b***h merridale, i can't believe it!
    why not beevor, then?
    merridale handles ''soviet archives'' just the same way as he does! (i.e. picks out the nastiest cases).

    and, look at the cover - what a mugs!
    what a title!
    here's ''ivan's war'', for you folks, indeed!

    i presume - here, the word ''ivan'' (in combination with that photo on the cover) is supposed to imply: ''ever victimized sub-human untermencsh''?
    right?
    if so,
    then read and enjoy, and at the same time feel pleased with how other nation is being humiliated - you westerners just love to humiliate others.
     
  10. AMVAS

    AMVAS Senior Member

    1. tv channels whatever they are - is not a reliable source.
    documents is only source one can trust.


    You missed my post below. It contains direct links for documents containing all the detail of that story. Read it carefully...

    2. morons or not, for the red army morons weren't any problem.
    russians destroyed up to 78% of nazi military and that's the main point.
    so, the victors are not to be judged, mate.
    to judge the victors, means - showing a bad taste, after all.

    You are wrong here...Crimes are crimes everywhere and never mind who took part in those...

    Even taking into account majority of German surface troops were destroyed by Soviets, we can't justify crimes which did take place from the Soviet side. We can argue in what degree they were spread and what means the Soviet command used to prevent those.
    But it's obvious that no army can stay wthout crimes, even if the state is the most democratic in the world. Always one can find a pack of morons, who uses different situations for crimes (rapes, murders, robbery and many else..)
    Wartime provides unique field for this.

    but I have to notice the main difference between Nazis and Soviet crimes.
    Nazis crimes were approved on the state level. that meant if German soldier made some crime towards some Russian civilian he never would be punished.
    And vise versa, if soviet solder would be caught for some crime against German civilian he had all chances to be shot, or sent in prison camps.
    Not always this worked. Sometimes local commanders covered crimes of soldiers and didn't report about those. Also there were lots of other situations. but in general, politics of Soviet command was directed agaisnt crimes of soldiers against civilians, while Nazi command didn't make a move in this direction.

    That's my point...
     
  11. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    i presume - here, the word ''ivan'' (in combination with that photo on the cover) is supposed to imply: ''ever victimized sub-human untermencsh''?
    right?
    if so,
    then read and enjoy, and at the same time feel pleased with how other nation is being humiliated - you westerners just love to humiliate others.

    er, No actually.
    Ivan is a nickname, same as Tommy, Fritz,GI, Digger etc etc .
    If the book was about Britsh soldiers it'd would be called "Tommy's War".
    Have you read it?
    Have you read the praise she has for Soviet Veterans?
    Let them be the judge.
    I read it but didn't enjoy it. Not exactly a "fun" subject.

    Finally,T-34, drop the anti-Western stance, last warning.
     
  12. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    ... T-34...Such sort of people...can't compensate lack of reliable info from their side.

    but, seems like - you can not provide ''reliable info'' either.
     
  13. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    ... in general, politics of Soviet command was directed agaisnt crimes of soldiers against civilians...That's my point...

    that's the point the one who does the ww2 research should always start with, otherwise he/she insults the memory of those who fought against the facsism.
     
  14. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    that's the point the one who does the ww2 research should always start with, otherwise he/she insults the memory of those who fought against the facsism.
    But does that mean they have to ignore any wrong doing or events that don't fit with the "Official" view of the conduct of the war?
    Surely to have a full and balanced picture we should know the good deeds as well as the bad?
    The Red Army as any other had the full spectrum of humanity, both good and bad.

    and, look at the cover - what a mugs!


    the photos shows Soviet POWs.
    You call them "mugs", surely you insult them?
     
  15. AMVAS

    AMVAS Senior Member

    but, seems like - you can not provide ''reliable info'' either.

    I already provided...But seems either it disappeared, or missed for some reasons... :mad:

    You can read full details of this episode in attached file confirmed by archival documents

    Summary:

    That was Separate Recon company of the 108th Rifle Corps (Commander Capt. S.A. Kalmykov)

    And named Major was Major V. Ju. Gavrilets - commander of the 137th Tank Battalion/90th Rifle Division

    Events took place on May 8-9'45 in the northern part of Reugen between Warnkevitz and Putgarten (spelling?) settlements

    Source:
    "Rodina", 5/2006
     

    Attached Files:

  16. AMVAS

    AMVAS Senior Member

    that's the point the one who does the ww2 research should always start with, otherwise he/she insults the memory of those who fought against the facsism.

    Yes, but we mustn't draw events only in "white"...
    there were also dark sides of the history...
    Forgetting about them is dangerous, because people, who likes to diminish the role of the Red Army in defeat of Nazis uses those blanks in their own ways. And it's in russian interests to uncover the real truth and not to leave this field for fantasies of such blatant liars like Beevor....
     
  17. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    T-34, can you read at all or do you have blinkers before your eyes?

    What we were talking here before you highjacked this thread with your rantings was how sorry we were for the Red Army soldiers who were so badly treated by their top authorities. No one here has any less admiration for the effort and suffering of the Red Soldier, however you can't see that and prefer instead to rant about the West in general.
     
  18. T-34

    T-34 Discharged - Nazi

    er, No actually.
    Ivan is a nickname, same as Tommy, Fritz,GI, Digger etc etc .
    If the book was about Britsh soldiers it'd would be called "Tommy's War".
    Have you read it?
    Have you read the praise she has for Soviet Veterans?
    Let them be the judge...

    er, yes - actually...
    you might not know it, but you certaily feel it.
    and such authors as merridale and beevor know that you love to indulge in feeling it.
    yes,
    i do insist that it is a very western style: to love to feel superior to other nations.
    and you love it to such a degree, that finally you become a naive persons, thinking - others (russians in this case) would tolerate it.

    ok, let us imagine:
    the same sort of the book being published in russia, but this time it closely (and in a style of merridale's book) concerns american/british army problems - what would you say, then?...

    as for ''the praise for soviet veterans'', it was simply used to disguise the overall patronising tone of the book which intention was, for another time around - to portray russians as a bunch of victims (=sheep) of some mysterious ''regime'' they, russians, are clueless about.

    as for nicknames -
    we used to call germans ''fritzes'', and it was as much as derogatory as when they called us ''ivans''.
    see, the eastern front was much more intense than that of the west,
    in the eastern front - the hatred was taken to much higher level.
    so, the words like ''ivan'' or ''natasha'' should not be used for collective description of people of russian nationality.
    -
     
  19. CTNana

    CTNana Member Patron

    .....yes,
    i do insist that it is a very western style: to love to feel superior to other nations.
    and you love it to such a degree, that finally you become a naive persons, thinking - others (russians in this case) would tolerate it.

    .....as for ''the praise for soviet veterans'', it was simply used to disguise the overall patronising tone of the book which intention was, for another time around

    ........so, the words like ''ivan'' or ''natasha'' should not be used for collective description of people of russian nationality.
    -

    T-34
    I read your contributions with such sadness. Whilst views are so polarised there really is no hope for world peace for my Children and Grandchildren.

    Taken to the extreme, we should pay absolutely no attention to what you are saying because the above quotes are simply your anecdotal evidence of how we view Russia.

    I have visited your country and found as a gross generalisation, initially a great suspicion of us obvious westerners. This was quickly replaced by warmth and generosity when a more personal rapport could be established.

    The very fact that this site is still addressing issues which are over 60 years old is a testament to the many lives which were affected in some way or another by the war. It is us "normal" people who pay the ultimate price and surely then it is very healthy to investigate every aspect to prevent its recurrance.

    We may all mourn our heroes (personal and national) but we have also to try and understand the posturing at state level which leads to the loss and suffering.


    I personally do not remember the war, see that some of these people are only just older than my Grandchildren, and am impressed by the breadth and depth of their knowledge.

    It is obviously not a language issue because your English is excellent. Perhaps it is a cultural thing. I do remember being amused in St Petersburg by signs which told us which grass we may walk on as opposed to here where it would indicate where we may not!

    Ever the optimist at least T-34 is reading what you guys are writing!!

    Cheers
    CTNana
     
  20. AMVAS

    AMVAS Senior Member

    A brief offtop.
    On avatar of T-34
    [​IMG]
    one can see a flag of so called "National-Bolshevik" party.
    Its flag is conjugation of Nazi and Soviet symbols. (Nazi-type flag with Soviet sickle and hammer inside instead of fylfot)
    I'm not too expereienced in their ideology, but I can say it's quite a radical party. Many processes were performed here for their illegal actions.
    On the West such sort of parties is called "Ultras".
    I can't say in what relation "T-34" is with this party, but usage of its flag for avatar indirectly shows his point of view on the subject....

    P.S.
    "The Other Russia"
    The Other Russia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    is supported by the USA as "democratic" will of Russians....
    Very nice company - so called radical "democrats" and radical "National-bolsheviks"

    Ok, the thread can become too political one...
     

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