Long March POW Casualty 1945: John Antony Ronald Coulthard, Stalag XXA, Thorn

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by dbf, May 9, 2010.

  1. Son of POW-Escaper

    Son of POW-Escaper Senior Member

    Hi Diane,
    Is there any information on Douglas Burnell's POW story? He was at Thorn XXa 1943-1945, but that's all I have found.
    Regards
    Barbara


    Have you checked in 'Wire and Walls' by Charles Rollings?

    Marc
     
  2. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Just bringing this to the new page in case it's overlooked.
    Hi Barbara
    I don't have much other than his full Liberation questionnaire. Here is a transcription of his replies:

    Regtl No 2719823
    Rank Guardsman
    Surname BURNELL
    Initials / First Name Douglas
    Unit 2 Bn [Irish Guards]
    Whether taken POW Yes
    Date of Birth 25 Dec 1917
    Date of Enlistment 5 Jan 1940
    Trade or Profession Clerk
    Address 4 Ferngate Drive, Withington, Manchester 20, Lancashire
    Date of Original Capture 23 May 1940
    Place of Original Capture Boulogne, France
    Whether wounded No
    Main Camps, Name, Location, Dates from to Stalag 20b Marienburg, 1940 to 1943;
    Stalag 20a Thorn Poland, 1943 to 1945
    Working Camp Gotenhafen, 17 Jul 1940 to Sep 1941;
    Danzig, 5 Dec 1941 to 12 Sep 1943;
    Thorn 12 Sep 1943 to 20 Jan 1945;
    As Clerk and Interpreter in each case
    Illness while P/W nature, cause, duration Dysentry, cause bad / lack of food, 3 weeks
    Whether adequate medical treatment received No. Complaint whilst on the Evacuation march from Poland
    Lectures before Capture -
    Interrogation after Capture Normal verbal interrogation
    Escapes attempted Yes.
    1) Early 1940 at Gotenhafen attempted to board a Swedish ship. Escaped while guard was engaged in conversation. Recaptured by German Dock guard.
    2) On the evacuation march from Poland. Hid in the straw in a barn. By Police dog. Received threat of shooting and rifle butt strokes.
    Sabotage Engaged in Camp work the whole time
    Collaboration by Brit/US personnel No
    Any other matter "Tony Coulthard died on the line of march from Poland at a ?barn near Dormitz. He was in an extremely weak condition from Dysentry, but the final blow (in my eyes) was a cold bath in the open, carried out by a Medical Orderly acting on orders from a German W.O. in charge of the column.
    Hptm. Mackensen No. 1 Co. Landeschutz Batt. 714 was the officer responsible for the column.
    Coulthard was buried in Dormitz by four of our men."
    Date of Questionnaire 19 Apr 1945


    If interested, this is a report dealing with the 2nd Battalion Irish Guards part in the action at Boulogne
    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/irish-guards/16709-2nd-battalion-irish-guards.html
     
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  3. BarbaraWT

    BarbaraWT Member

    Hi Diane
    Thanks for the details. I also read the account of the evacuation from Bolougne with great interest.
    Regards
    Barbara
     
  4. BarbaraWT

    BarbaraWT Member

    Diane, thanks so much for starting this thread. And as you pointed out, thanks very much to ADM199 for sending Burnell's statement to you. Much appreciated. The thread has been accessed over 3,000 now, which is probably the most recognition Antony's sacrifice has received since the web was available. Barbara
     
  5. Steve Foster

    Steve Foster Senior Member

    With Barbara's permission, I am posting the English version of the letter we sent to the Pastor of Domitz church and the translated reply.

    As the beginning of the reply states there are no records held in Domitz, the details of British POWs being transported across the Elbe, placed in a barn and one dying overnight must have been supplied to the Pastor by a person who witnessed it. The official notification to Antony's parents states he was buried in Kaltenhof so these facts seem to align. Barbara and I both agree that this is possibly the barn where Antony died and the person mentioned may well be him.

    We are contemplating our next move (probably to write again and ask if the barn still exists and for the contact details of the person who provided the information to the Pastor), but have put the letters in the public domain to allow debate and ask for ideas on the way forward.

    Steve Foster View attachment Letter to Domitz church.doc

    View attachment Reply from Domitz.docx
     
  6. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Hello Steve and Barbara, thanks for keeping us updated.

    I've no idea how to proceed from that, but wonder Steve if you have looked through this file at Kew? Sorry I can't remember if I mentioned it to you already in a PM, apologies if I have, but just in case.

    WO 361/736
    Context: War Office: Department of the Permanent Under Secretary of State: Casualties (L) Branch: Enquiries into Missing Personnel, 1939-45 War
    Scope and content: 'Searcher Parties' to trace personnel missing from operations, unlocated ex-prisoners of war and to locate graves: Germany, 55 Search Bureau, BAOR
    Covering dates 1946 Jun 21 - 1947 Apr 16
     
  7. Steve Foster

    Steve Foster Senior Member

    Hello Steve and Barbara, thanks for keeping us updated.

    I've no idea how to proceed from that, but wonder Steve if you have looked through this file at Kew? Sorry I can't remember if I mentioned it to you already in a PM, apologies if I have, but just in case.

    WO 361/736
    Hello Diane,

    Thanks very much for that, will add that catologue to WO 361/1818 when I visit the National Archives in the near future.

    Steve
     
  8. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Steve
    I understand it's a large file. ?Maybe one to order in advance and check out if it's of any value to your research; though going by the description alone, it seems to be on exactly the right lines.
    Fingers crossed that there's something about Antony in it.
    Regards
    Diane
     
  9. BarbaraWT

    BarbaraWT Member

    Hi Steve
    If the account in the book is correct, Antony may well have been buried in Langendorf/Niedersachsen (the closet cemetery to the barn?). But what happened to Kaltenhof as the burial location? And what if he was really buried in Domitz proper? I also wonder where the morgue was located and if it could have a small cemetery?
    To quote from the translation:

    "Perhaps he was buried in Langendorf/Niedersachsen, the closest cemetery. It is known that in 1945/46 there were five or six graves of foreigners behind the morgue (after the low level air attacks the the population’s attitute was barly friendly). After 1946 they were moved, where to is not known. Tombstones can not be found anymore."
     
  10. BarbaraWT

    BarbaraWT Member

    Thanks Diane, that looks very interesting.
    Regards
    Barbara
     
  11. Steve Foster

    Steve Foster Senior Member

    Hi Barbara,

    It is a real puzzler, so many bits of information and hard to sift out what is fact. I suppose there is no substitute for visting the area, talking to people and looking at all of these places. Finding the barn (or site of) may be the first step.

    Will draft a reply to the Pastor asking him if the barn still exists.

    Regards

    Steve
     
  12. Steve Foster

    Steve Foster Senior Member

    Hi Barbara and Diane,
    I spent the day at the National Archives on Tuesday (Andy was there too, but I didn't know it!) researching what I could on any formal record of the death and burial site of Antony Coulthard. Also spent a lot of time researching Norway records.

    I researched 5 in number files and am afraid I did not find a thing. However, a very helpful person at the help desk spent some time with me and gave me some file nubers for future research. He also confirmed that they do not have the MiD citation for Antony.

    Files researched:
    WO 361:
    1818, Reports of Inspections by Swiss Authorities at Stalag XXA
    735, Establishment of Searcher Parties to locate ex POWs and locate graves.
    736, Searcher Parties for unlocated POW graves in Germany
    765, European Theatre, Outstanding Missing Personnel
    777, POWs presumed dead, not missing, Nominal Roll

    Files I will research in the New Year:
    WO 361:
    762, Outsatnding missing personnel Europe, Adj Gen's monthly returns
    764, All Theatres, Outstanding Missing Personnel - Hardcore Cases
    WO 311:
    1113, Ill Treatment of POWs from XXA on march from Thorn to Stendal
    1115, Ill Treatment of POWs on march from Stalag XXA
    1118, Ill Treatment of POWS at Fort 17, Stalag XXA
    1120, Il treatment of POWS on March From XXA to Schwerin
    1121, Ill Treatment of POWS on March from Stalag XXA, Thorn
    WO 309:
    1982, Alleged Ill Treatment of Brit POWs at various Stalags inc XXA
    FO 916/2574, Foreign Office Files on various Stalags inc XXA

    That should give me something to be getting on with. Barbara, WO 311/1120 sounds the most promising as in the small book of Antony's life, p 37, there is a mention that Antony's party reached Schwerin in early March 45.

    The one thing I took away from the day was thet there was a highly swept up system of finding missing personnel in 1945/46. There seemed to be a master list, which was very long indeed, and was constantly being revised/updated by the searcher teams. I have to say that most of the names on the list were assumed Killed in Action or killed whilst escaping from POW camps. There was no reference to the Long March victims which makes me think they are in another filling system.

    I am sorry I could not find anything positive.

    I copied quite a lot of papers and will put some of them on a separate post.

    Regards

    Steve
     
  13. Steve Foster

    Steve Foster Senior Member

    Searcher Team1.jpg

    Searcher Team2.jpg

    POWs Still Missing1.jpg

    POWs still Missing2.jpg

    I have attached above four documents detailing the methodology for searching for missing personnel and graves in Europe after WW2. I must stress these are just 4 of the hundreds that I saw in the files in the NAs. I had to sift out documents I thought relevant.
    The first two attachments constitute a letter from the head of the organisation giving an overview of how the searcher teams were made up. The paragraph entitled Russian Zone is of interest in Antony's case. It states that they would only let three teams in behind the Iron Curtain, and in March 46, one of those teams was not yet in place. It also states that the Soviets would not allow the exhumation of unidentified graves, some of which are likely to contain the bodies of ex POWs.
    This is probably the exact problem your Grandparents came up aginst after the war, Barbara.

    The second two documents are a covering letter and attached list from 55 Search Bureau, BAOR dated 6 June 46 giving the total list of unaccounted ex POWs. It must have been a hefty organisation as it was headed up by a Lt Col. The page I copied should be where Antony Coulthard's name appears alphabetically, but for some reason it doesn't. Why, I don't know. Could the War office have decided that they knew the rough area of his grave but it was impossible to find it? Or had the Soviets denied access to the cemetery? I suppose the answer to that depends on which side of the Elbe he was buried. Domitz was in Soviet teritory, Kaltenhof was in Allied territory. I think we will learn the answer to that in May when we visit.

    I will return to the National Archives in the New Year Barbara and look at all of those files I detailed in the previous post, to see if we can get a break through.

    I hope this has been of some help.

    Regards

    Steve
     
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  14. BarbaraWT

    BarbaraWT Member

    Hi Steve, the record you mention sounds like the right direction. "1120, Il treatment of POWS on March From XXA to Schwerin". Google maps estimates 4 and half days walk between Thorn and Schwerin. I think that must mean non-stop walking for healthy people, well fed and clothed..
     
  15. BarbaraWT

    BarbaraWT Member

    I'm thinking Antony may well have been buried in Domitz, (province is Mecklenberg etc) located in the Russian zone. This would explain why he is named on the Dunkirk Memorial but has no "relocated" formal grave? It must have been very upsetting if my grandparents were unable to visit his grave because of post war politics. You'd think losing him would have been enough, without that problem.
    Did you notice there was a Sherwood Forester on the Missing POW list? "Pte R. Cain". I wonder if he was found? Would your Dad have known him?
    Regards
    Barbara
     
  16. billminer

    billminer Member

    Steve

    Would you be posting these Files on this site as I am intetested.WO 361:
    1818, Reports of Inspections by Swiss Authorities at Stalag XXA
    735, Establishment of Searcher Parties to locate ex POWs and locate graves.
    736, Searcher Parties for unlocated POW graves in Germany
    765, European Theatre, Outstanding Missing Personnel
    777, POWs presumed dead, not missing, Nominal Roll

    Files I will research in the New Year:
    :
    1113, Ill Treatment of POWs from XXA on march from Thorn to Stendal
    1115, Ill Treatment of POWs on march from Stalag XXA
    1118, Ill Treatment of POWS at Fort 17, Stalag XXA
    1120, Il treatment of POWS on March From XXA to Schwerin
    1121, Ill Treatment of POWS on March from Stalag XXA, Thorn
    WO 309:
    1982, Alleged Ill Treatment of Brit POWs at various Stalags inc XXA
    FO 916/2574, Foreign Office Files on various Stalags inc XXA
     
  17. Steve Foster

    Steve Foster Senior Member

    Hi Bill, obviously I will not be able to post the files I have yet to research. Some of the files I have researched are at the post above, and will post the more relevent pages I researched in due course.
    Steve
     
  18. billminer

    billminer Member

    Kind of interested in these files because my dad was on this part of the march. He says he went through all these towns such as stendal, Schwerin etc.

    Thanks

    Steve
     
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  19. BarbaraWT

    BarbaraWT Member

    "The Long March to Freedom: by ASA Films copyright 2011, was referenced in the last scan of the Commandant's Report from Stalag XXA; may be a good DVD to watch, but I can't get the shopping process to work!

    ASA Productions (UK) Ltd
     
  20. billminer

    billminer Member

    I just added it to promote the documentary.
     

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