Kiel May 1945: who was in charge?

Discussion in 'The Third Reich' started by Jonathan Saunders, Feb 19, 2014.

  1. Bluebell Minor

    Bluebell Minor Junior Member

    Jonathan

    I think we are into very fine detail now and there are two key interlinked unanswered questions

    1. Who tasked Major Tonkin with going to Kiel? It is my understanding that Special Forces were under Army Group level of command (ie 21 Army Group not HQ 8 Corps)

    2. Who issued the original orders to Major Hibbert including the composition of his Force? There is some confusion over this and is clear that some Staff Branches in HQ 8 Corps were unaware of the source, hence the threat of Court Martial for disobeying orders
     
  2. Hi Bluebell,

    Regarding 1. then I feel the order to get to Kiel first would have come directly from 21 Army Group (surely London would have been instructing Montgomery directly).

    Who then decided that an S.A.S. Squadron with 30 AU should push through with great haste then I just dont know. But at that time Mayne was at 11 Armd Div HQ. Tonkin would have been chosen specifically by Mayne, which is interesting in itself as beyond his undoubted fighting qualities Mayne was also considered to have a very quick and brilliant brain. This suggests to me that Mayne picked Tonkin carefully ... and then I fast forward to Kiel and Tonkin not allowing Hibbert to push him out of the loop.

    I feel I am getting out of my depth.

    Wills ... thanks for the additional link on Albert Mumma.

    Regards,

    Jonathan S
     
  3. Bluebell Minor

    Bluebell Minor Junior Member

    Jonathan

    I admire you for your sources, I had not come across the names of Major John Tomkin and Paddy Mayne in connection with Kiel before.

    I agree with you that we are rapidly getting out of our comfort zone, but I would like to continue this conversation privately (we can always publish any substantive developments later)
     
  4. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    There's a couple of videos and a audio (page 2) of Tony Hibbert talking about Eclipse on ParaData. Old stuff really, but it may be of interest.

    Tony Hibbert - Paradata

    Regards ...
     
  5. Bluebell Minor

    Bluebell Minor Junior Member

    Cee

    Thank you very much, very interesting. Absolutely, but not surprisingly, no mention of an A Squadron SAS presence
     
  6. Thanks Cee. So it appears it was Mohr that negotiated the surrender of Kiel with Hibbert and probably was the man negotiaiting the "armistice" in Kiel with Tonkin from 3rd May.

    As Bluebell says ... no mention of the S.A.S. but that isnt surprising.

    Lots of other really interesting bits on that link so thanks very much!

    Regards,

    Jonathan S
     
  7. Hi Bluebell,

    It was Bob Bennett (via Cee) that identified Tonkin. Fortunately I know a bit about Tonkin from the Bulbasket operation - a most resourceful individual.

    More than happy to continue privately although there appears interest still in this thread and also I dont know much more ... its only from the information that you, Cee, Wills and others have added that I am managing to learn and try to piece together the full story of Kiel. But feel free to email me.

    Regards,

    Jonathan S
     
  8. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Guys,

    There are a couple of interviews by Johnny Cooper and Reg Seeking at the IWM. Unfortunately they aren't available and the description doesn't reveal much other than the fact they went to Kiel. You can hear Ronald W. Cryer who was also with D Squadron describe his experience of Kiel in reel 4 of his interview.

    Cryer, Ronald William (IWM interview)

    As far as the Bob Bennett story goes I'm not sure where it fits into the overall picture. It seems that Donitz was kept very busy taking calls during this period ... :)

    Regards ...
     
  9. Bluebell Minor

    Bluebell Minor Junior Member

    Cee

    Thank you very much for your latest suggestions, much appreciated
     
  10. This is just a final thank you to all contributors. This really helped me and has given me a new interest in 30AU.

    Regards,

    Jonathan S
     
  11. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Jonathan, locations can sometimes be interesting ... :)

    Rear Admiral von Gerlach was said to be ensconced in the Flandernbunker (map). I'll attach a photo of the bunker taken shortly after the war found here:

    http://www.bunker-whv.de/kiel/bunkerkiel1.html

    As you can see it has changed since with the removal of massive rectangular portions on some of the walls. Flandernbunker was the first of a few truppenmannschaftsbunkers or 'troop crew bunkers' built in Kiel and was capable of accommodating up to 750 troops/people.

    Floor plan here:

    http://www.mahnmalkilian.de/flandernbunker.html

    Regards ...
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Cee ... excellent! Thanks very much. Would the Flandernbunker have been the HQ of the German Naval forces in Kiel in May 1945?

    Another favour, do you have a photo of the official building that was the German Naval HQ in Kiel?

    Kind regards,

    Jonathan S
     
  13. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Jonathan,

    The building Major Hibbert first went to and where he met Kapitan Mohr on the steps is currently the Schleswig-Holstein Landtag or state diet and is located right on the waterfront of the Kiel fjord - (map). What's confusing is it's referred to as both the Naval Academy and Naval HQ in different accounts. Built in 1872 It was the Imperial German Naval Academy until 1910. Later that institution was moved to a rather imposing building in Flensburg. After WW1 it was known as the Marinestation Ostsee or the Baltic Naval Station.

    From the Naval Academy to the House of the Land Parliament - Gov. Site

    The war photo of the building shows that it took quite a pounding - it's architecturally similar but there are differences and I wonder if the shot was taken from the back? Or is it another building altogether?

    Ok that's probably more confusing than helpful ... :)

    eng_marineakademie_wasserseite_1905.jpg Landtag of Schleswig-Holstein.jpg Naval HQ.JPG
     
  14. Bluebell Minor

    Bluebell Minor Junior Member

    Grand Admiral Doenitz had set up his Headquarters in the Flensburg Naval Academy at the time of the Final Surrender.
     
  15. Thanks again Cee.

    Agree that the war photo has architectural differences so either the back view or possibly a different (naval) building (in Kiel).

    Regards,

    Jonathan S
     
  16. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    A few odds and ends ...

    In the attached still from '5 Days in May' does the German narrator explain who is in the jeep and what the building is in the background? It's hard to make out in the video but Tony Hibbert seems to pointing to a similar building in his scrap book.

    Torbjoern Oevsttun in his account of time spent in confinement calls the building previously posted the 'Kiel Jail'. I'm not sure what to make of that?

    Torbjoern’s Story – Underground work, and Kiel Concentration Camp

    This page may be of peripheral interest:

    NO. 58 BOMB DISPOSAL PLATOON, ROYAL ENGINEERS

    As usual this is a learning experience for me, so thanks for putting up with my floundering around ... :)

    Regards ..
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Bluebell Minor

    Bluebell Minor Junior Member

    Jonathan, Cee

    Do either of you have details of the operational Base of 30 AU during their time in Kiel in early Summer 1945?.

    My suggestion would be

    a HMS Royal Henry The Royal Navy HQ on the eastern shores of the Kiel Bay north of the U Boot Kilian Bunker.

    b. HMS Royal Caroline The Royal Navy's Naval Intelligence Establishment just to the north of the entrance to the Kiel Canal in Holtenau

    c. Maas Barracks Exact location as yet unknown but the administrative base of 117 Infantry Brigade Royal Marines.
     
  18. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    BM,

    The Nicholas Rankin book mentions that 30 AU at some point made the luxurious boardroom of Walter-Werke their officer's mess which may indicate their HQ was nearby. The H. Walter KG was located somewhere on the south bank of the Kiel Canal.

    There are a few lists for Royal Navy Shore Establishments on the net. It still looks like a work in progress and the dates may vary especially with Kiel where the Royal Naval presence lasted until the mid 50s.

    http://www.baor-locations.org/RoyalNavy.aspx.html

    http://bfg-locations.editboard.com/t452-rn-shore-establishments

    http://www.royalmarinesmuseum.co.uk/unit-history-summaries

    Not sure if that helps though ... :lol:
     
  19. Bluebell Minor

    Bluebell Minor Junior Member

    Cee

    Thank you, the subject of the Royal Navy in German Waters in Summer 1945 is very much work in progress (I was involved in drafting two of the three links you quote)

    Regarding the video clip, the German narrator makes no reference to the soldier in the T Force Jeep. The damaged sign on the building could have been POSTAMT, the German equivalent of Post Office
     
  20. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Ok thanks BM,

    Sorry, I wasn't aware of your involvement with the RN Shore Establishments documentation. The following won't be of much help with your 30 AU search, but tell me if it makes any sense with regards T-Force's initial HQ. A photo in Renate Dopheide's book says the T-Force HQ was at the Deutschen Werke which coincides with their WD, Appendix 'H':

    "'T' Force headquarters was established at target 23c where we were met by the directors of the ship-building works."

    The next day, May 6th, Major Lambert discovers a better location over the canal which they intended to move into on the 7th. I'll add a couple of pics one of which shows Dr. Immich, managing director of Deutschen Werke, in May 1945 meeting with British Officers. The one officer front right could be wearing a Pegasus patch?

    Regards ...

    T-Force HQ.JPG Shipyards Kiel.JPG Dr. Immich-Officers.jpg
     

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