Discussion in 'The Third Reich' started by robin bird, Jul 29, 2015.
thanks for the final part.
Thanks Robin for concluding an interesting historical account of someone who as Bormann's secretary was close to Hitler's inner circle and ended up as a British citizen.
Incidentally while this research was unfolding I referenced a note which indicated that Mr James was a Sergeant at the time of his marriage to Else which may have posed a problem in the aftermath of non fraternisation.
I think Mr James may have been discharged when he wed Else. Initially, I wondered how she would have fitted in to life in post war Wallasey Village? Later I found out she had been an aupair to a middle class English family before the war and could speak excellent English. As a result of my newspaper story I have been contacted by a woman whose mother, a neighbour, helped prepare the wedding breakfast for Mr and Mrs James, so Else must have been accepted quite quickly into the local community. Regarding Bormann, Else was convinced that he would not survive outside the Bunker. She did not give evidence in court, as requested by Bormann's defence, as she was a ' hostile witness' Having read the Bormann files at Kew it appears that the British Government never seriously believed he had escaped Berlin and was alive.
RIP Else Kruger
Yes,I found the reference to Else and her sister being aupair girls at the home of a Shell Mecx executive,the idea being the executive's daugher would learn German.So Else must have come from a familty that were able to fund travel for their daughters to England at a time when few were able to travel independently.
As regards the whereabouts of Bormann,despite the ruling of the West German government in the early 1970s that human remains found on a Berlin building site were his,the mystery of Bormann disappearance has resulted in a number of publications all claiming that he escaped from Berlin to some distance safe haven.I always regarded these publications as tosh.
German brides,Else would be a British soldier's wife.There must have been many who settled in Britain after marrying and assimilated successfully into British culture.
Great story Robin,
I enjoyed reading it, and it made me wonder if the romance of it would ever make it worthy of a documentary / film?
Re. German brides etc. plenty of these, and the other way around - British royal family is after-all of German descent and if he could have inherited the British throne through his mother (and have chosen to be in communion with the Church of England) we'd have had King Kaiser Wilhelm I (or should that have been William V?)
Slightly before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_William,_Duke_of_Cambridge
(Who anyhow would have thereby been pushed far down the line of succession if not in effect dispossessed?!)
I met a German lady in Brighton in 1966. She was running a B&B place which I think was called Rheingold. When I spoke in German to her, she replied in English and said that she has forgotten most of her own language and would prefer to speak English.
After studying the Bormann files at Kew, convinced he died on leaving Bunker.Also found this cutting. The untold story of Else, of course, was the subject of my research not Bormann. robin
Similarly, I suspect anyone that thinks that Hitler “too” might have gone into hiding has only to wonder what on earth he could have done to remain inconspicuous and find a place in some later civilian life. Quite a few "humorous" takes on the total absurdity of this & I quite like Spike Milligan’s take on how he would have fared, had he decided to taken up an impressionist/singing career…
Perhaps another potential reason though for British intelligence to keep tabs on Else long after the end of the war was over was to have her “on hand” in case anyone did turn up claiming to be Bormann and attempt to garner any lingering Nazi support, as she could have quite easily been able to say (through having known him so well) that any impostor that “appeared” was obviously not the Bormann that she had known. When looking for Eichmen there were no current photos to go on, or easily accessible sources who knew him and so despite having a suspect no concrete evidence was initially found and hence he long eluded capture etc.
It looks and sounds to me though from here:
That the remains were conclusively identified as Bormann's in 1998 when German authorities ordered genetic testing on fragments of the skull. It would be quite hard to disprove that, though I am sure some die hard conspiracy theorists might still "give it a go"...
An excellent thread to read from start to finish with excellent work by members that is a credit to the Site.
As the NKVD and SMERSH would both have been after any bunker occupants, I rather doubt Bormann would have been buried in a shell hole near where he fell, if indeed there were any shell or bomb holes near where he purportedly fell. I would expect they scoured the area house to house and examined every corpse they could find.
As for his crudity and stupidity, he was clever enough to out-maneuver the other leading Nazis, so Else Kruger must have had some other reason for describing him as "crude" and "stupid". Either she was just glad of a chance to insult him publicly, or she was attempting to aid his concealment by presenting him as a someone who was incapable of remaining hidden. She might have been doing that out of loyalty to him or because someone told her to. She was in British custody at the time.
Ainsworth-Davis/Creighton claims that Borman's remains were "placed" where they were found and that this was proven by the soil attached to his remains which was not from that area and the dental work the teeth exhibited that was not found on his 3rd Reich records. Read the book and see what you think.
I may be mistaken but I am sure that I have read that the remains were examined forensically and DNA samples from the remains proved it was Borman.
End of story when correct.
Absolutely Tom.....Proved beyond doubt scientifically that the remains were those of Bormann...but does not conclude on the fiction being generated about him.
The Bormann file at Kew makes farcical reading regarding reports that Bormann was still alive. Attached is part of one. Another was from a landlady in Dublin who had Bormann staying as a bed and breakfast guest!!
Farcical!!! Quite right Robin
But I think you'll agree, from a certain perspective ^_^ it perhaps sounds highly credible though??? I think it would take about (or at the very least) 6 months expenses paid in Padua (along with a couple of month’s trip to the seaside in Aberystwyth – some nice hotels there) to check this out.
Along with the cost of the exclusive TV documentary and the book deal, provided of course full funding is there… I think we should definitely be able to confirm or refute this, or at the very least find some more leads to pursue, I heard he went first to Brazil and had cosmetic surgery and a possibly a sex change and then went to Bali to work as a waitress… before traipsing all over India and China ending up with a Lama nr. the summit of Everest. So the trail would probably most certainly entail someone footing this bill, and including this trip:
If you're going to attempt to climb Mount Everest you're going to shell out a minimum of $30,000. Most western guiding companies charge around $65,000, and if you're going all-out on a private expedition with an imported chef and constant access to Instagram, your trip might run as high as $100,000
Did someone say he might have gone bungee jumping in New Zealand too?
Conspiracies are prone to unravelling (I hear)
Ps. "Another was from a landlady in Dublin who had Bormann staying as a bed and breakfast guest!!"
Presumably he went to Ireland in order to Kiss the Blarney?
As he was so unworldly he thought he could do with a bit of the "gift of the gab" to further aid his escape?
BTW, there are some quotes by and about Bormann in here:
Some are whether (or not) he would eventually "show up" but also: "I believe that Bormann had no friends and that he was one of the most despised of men. " and "a national disaster" - presumably plenty of reasons then why he should "escape undetected" and have been shielded by anyone.
Baldur Von Schirach:
...was a Nazi youth leader later convicted of being a war criminal.
(Not a reliable source )
I'm afraid you misread my post. Creighton said the remains were placed where they were found. He claims they were Borman's remains alright, but that the gentleman lived out his natural span elsewhere and then was re-interred where he was later miraculously found. Again, read the book if you're curious, or be satisfied with some platitudes and leave it at that. I have no idea if the book is entirely true or even partially true, but it's certainly interesting and not every war memoir includes a letter from Churchill to the author regarding his "story".
I must be enjoying this somewhat to let this go on but....
"lived out his natural span elsewhere" would mean a few things,
1) the remains would be relatively fresh when re-unearthed - I see not evidence that they were not remains deposited there when he died in 1945. And they would have spent over 50 years in that state. Easy enough to tell frankly. What do we pay forensics for else-wise (and I do occasionally watch CSI)
2) If he had somehow managed to live on long after the war then - the DNA would have been that of a very old man. There are some tests now that could prove that, but sometimes teeth and even tiny samples of hair can also show a person's approximate age. Other ephemera in the soil and surrounds could say if the soil was freshly laid there or if his remains were freshly re-interred in the ground. Bones would show signs of wear and even osteoporosis, arthritis etc.
3) Someone would have had to have rathered that the story be - "that the world thought that he died", and that would have had to have gone on for awfully long. But why not tell everyone we are "such fools" and prove that "he lived"? Soon after he had died? Is the suggestion that this is some vast conspiracy solely designed so that he could have a nice long retirement in peace and tranquility. If so what aspect of this man makes you think that he was of the "shy-retiring type" - who could "blend into the crowd"? Frankly he would never have shut up about how "great all ze Nazi's vere"... even a few months of that would have bored anyone to tears and someone would for the sake of sanity, decided to shut him up. Or drop a hint somewhere appropriate for what one assumes would have been a rather substantial reward.
Did Martin Bormann Survive the war.
This is such an old argument. I'm barely interested briefly in saying again that by the conclusion of all probability he certainly did die. But more than that he is dead. I assume he met his maker. He's probably though in whatever hell Hitler went to and might have to wait a very long while there to atone for his sins.
I'm pretty agnostic in truth actually though. I prefer actually that he and his ilk "blinked" out of existence.
By remembering him at all, and particularly in this rather odd way, we are merely giving him his "life" in print in the way that the Ancient Greeks like Achilles sought.
But if perhaps "our sins are to be remembered more than our good deeds" then for him that's perhaps immortality enough....
At the risk of going on and on, "Creighton" states that Borman died of what we might call natural causes in I think it was Bolivia, after living quietly in the UK for some years, and that his skeletal remains were brought to Europe and placed where they were found. He states that this was proven by the soil attached to the remains being totally unlike that in which they were found in Germany and by the teeth showing post-war dental work which was not shown on his nazi-era dental records.
Not a very difficult job for competent secret services to arrange, and I don't find it much less plausible than the idea that some remains found in a hole in Berlin in 1972 were miraculously compared to Borman's records and found to be, (ta-da!) the Deputy Fuhrer. Someone must have had a hunch it was him I suppose?
I wonder who found the time to shovel the dirt over him in 1945 as Berlin was falling around their ears? Perhaps he had more loyal friends than we are led to believe?! LOL.
I see Simon Wiesenthal also believed Borman survived in South America and his sources were probably pretty good.
Nothing more than an interesting historical anecdote as far as I'm concerned, but I don't see any reason to cling to one story just because it seems like most other people are. If Borman did in fact give the UK government the keys to the Swiss bank accounts one can see how that would be a bit sensitive since the origins of a good deal of that wealth would be very much in dispute. Personally I hope they got it all and put it good use!
Fair enough! And "Fascinating", as the great Spock so often said.
A lot of great and classic fiction was and often still is sold to us as related by its authors, actual or imaginary, as being "fact" so I suppose it is a bit churlish to suggest that its authors and any subsequent publishers be required to add a note saying that such efforts are and were purely made up.
I think Romeo and Juliet begins a bit like that...
It is a bit like reading Shakespeare now with a scientific, histrocentric eye and telling those that read it for its poetry and beauty perhaps that really it is not purest history though.
Which is why it is not fair now to say that all historians and scientists that disagree with whatever Shakespeare wrote are liars and fabricators themselves who have subsequently made history up to suit some ulterior motive or fiendish plot to dupe the unsuspecting public at large.
Same with the Bible and some other holy books I quess. As these days generally the wily great consensus tends to be that you really shouldn’t read them as pure historically fact either. (not necessarily re. evolution though in the US )
Science and history do tend to rely on following some kind of conformity and sticking to the consensus of the herd and I can see why a voice in the wilderness attitude can be attractive, particularly if the one voice knows it is right and all the braying voices raised against it are wrong. However the facts as seem to be being suggested by "Creighton" just don’t seem to stack up – perhaps it is just still too soon after the events for him to be making these fictions up, in order to try to make money and (presumably) inadvertent mischief from them.
Perhaps in a few hundred years, he’ll be seen as this ages Shakespeare or great profit too, time will tell no doubt.
As regards though: “I wonder who found the time to shovel the dirt over him in 1945 as Berlin was falling around their ears? Perhaps he had more loyal friends than we are led to believe?!”
Anyone would shovel earth over a rotting object, so I don’t see that act as so unusual. The haste to move on after the war meant a lot of levelling of the ground over the shell holes of past events. Hence why so much seems to be being conjecture and source for further research now.
“that Borman died of what we might call natural causes in I think it was Bolivia, after living quietly in the UK for some years, and that his skeletal remains were brought to Europe and placed where they were found. He states that this was proven by the soil attached to the remains being totally unlike that in which they were found in Germany and by the teeth showing post-war dental work which was not shown on his nazi-era dental records.”
Just doesn’t seem entirely credible either. Though I admit that I do occasionally watch RT (as an example of “truth” but not as we know it Jim) and think wow – someone puts a lot of effort into seeing things in a whole different way. Not entirely sure what to make of it but I can understand the perspective and why. I am happy to assume for now that what "Creighton" states is purely what: "Creighton" states and leave it at that. When he convinces a consensus of scientific opinion of his case he’ll be totally vindicated no doubt. Perhaps if he gives the profits (if any?) from his books solely into properly funding further research into such he’d be poorer no doubt but his conscience would remain pure as the driven snow. Lots of poor scientists and even poorer historians no doubt could use the money that such fictions draw in (and draw away from more "proper" historical books) and it would be a great boon to all sorts of really useful and dare I say more productive further research.
Happy to go to Bolivia or Switzerland or Berlin (if he is paying) to further check this out? I can say I'd be cheap, or charge reasonable rates, but market forces and all that.
And I'm sure I'd put his money to good use.
Was this by any chance Bormann's pool?
Or perhaps one of one of his friends? There are plenty of other ex-Nazi stories to winkle out. I just think as regards Bormann this one is pretty much done. Perhaps it's just that he was Hitler's number 2 (pun intended) - and all the little minnows that did "get away" apparently (perhaps in retrospect) seem to have got off the hook as so much effort seems to be (and have been) the media solely going after the big fish.
Fair enough indeed; those interested can read the book and make up their own minds; I haven't even begun to cite from it. Wasn't it Spielberg who said that the difference between truth and fiction is that fiction has to make sense? I don't think Creighton gave a damn what anyone thought; he didn't need to.
How about Hess? There's a good mystery!
stefan, I would need your email re Else grave
Separate names with a comma.