D Day Landing Craft Markings

Does anyone know what information Clive based the details of his LCI(L)US-13 drawing on? According to Danny M, Red invasion (conning tower) bands were reserved for those LCIs landing at Juno. The US-13 landed at Sword, which would mean (again, according to Danny M) that its band would have been green. Clive's drawing shows the 13 with a red band and also shows the 13's LTIN as 412, which would have put the US-13 in the later-arriving (H+215) Group 13. This doesn't jibe with my dad's description of conditions on the beach when he made his initial arrival on June 6, nor does the casual demeanor of the Group 13 troops on the beach in this photo:

(See Noels attached PIC of US LCIs on Sword above...troops milling around/not taking cover)

My dad said that enemy fire was still heavy when he arrived, and I can state that this is not the hyperbole of "first-timer", as he had already participated in three previous amphibious invasions in the Mediterranean, including Anzio.


The next photo is the only one I've ever seen of the US-13 with LTIN affixed/painted on:



http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/15/1015000915.jpg

Unfortunately, the third digit of the LTIN on the front of the conn is not legible in this photo. Number looks to be either 412 or 417. The one on the side of the conn is obscured by a cable.

I'm not trying in any way to cast aspersions on Clive's beautiful drawing. I'm only attempting to determine whether he based either of these details on resonable supposition or on specific, RN documentation. In the interest of establishing accurate information for family history, I'd really appreciate answers to my questions. Unfortunately, my dad passed on 12 years ago, so I can't question him about these matters. He was pretty closed mouthed about his combat recollections: certainly anything but a blowhard or a braggart, so I trust the reliability of what little he did tell me about his D-Day experiences.

Thanks in advance for any further information regarding this.

 

John,

I'm afraid Trux made a typo in his post #24 above. See his more recently issued, stupendous work on SWORD here:
http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/38764-sword-beach/?p=553852
where the correct time is H+230, not H+30.This is logical as LTIN blocks were issued (except for support craft) more or less in order of landing, so LTIN 417 to 424 were planned to land with or right after LTIN 411 to 416, in this case H+230 and H+215 respectively.

This does not mean that landing at that time was a piece of cake. Quite the opposite, as, like Trux said, they landed under fire and three of them were damaged.

Nor am I, but I would suppose that Clive based his drawing on the Navsource photo for the camo and LTIN, plus some colour photos showing LCI(L) in JUNO Area, with the Red band clearly visible, and deducted that all LCI(L) wore that band. Not many people seem to know about the Green band for SWORD. I even think that at one time only Danny knew about them .

As for the LTIN being 412 or 417 (or 414), to me it definitely looks like 417, but only a clearer scan of the navsource photo could tell us for sure. Maybe you could contact Tim Hummel who posted the photo shot by his father Roy D. Hummel of LCI(L) 9? We would all be extremeley happy with high resolution scans of Tim/Roy's beautiful photos, especially those shot during the landings at SWORD.

Michel

 

Michel,

Many thanks for the link! What an incredible effort to make all that info available all these years later! Really gives one an appreciation for the magnitude of this invasion! Exactly the sort of stuff I've been hoping to learn for many years.

 

http://www.navsource.../1015000915.jpg




"A piece of intelligence was sent to me which describes how ten USN LCI(L) from 2 Flotilla, Groups 13 and 14 were assigned to Sword as early as March. These craft were US LCI(L)s 9, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 33, 35, 193 and 283. Some of these were very early craft and veterans of landings in the Mediterranean. The remaining 19 craft of US 2 Flotilla were at Utah. (US Flotillas were big, usually three groups of ten.)"---Trux

Could the "283" above possibly be another typo? Note in the PIC I've linked to above (which appears to be of a portion of the re-assigned, Group 13 & 14, USN Flotilla 2 LCI(L)s berthed together during the buildup) that one bears the pennant number "238".

Not trying to be snarky, here. Lord knows Trux had "a few" numbers to keep track of during the his compilation of that monumental Sword post you've linked to! Only drawing attention to this in the interest of accuracy.

 

Yes, you're right, it's a typo indeed. The correct hull number is 238.

Michel

 

Michel,

"As for the LTIN being 412 or 417 (or 414), to me it definitely looks like 417, but only a clearer scan of the navsource photo could tell us for sure."

I agree. Looks more like 417 to me as well.

An original, analog copy of that same photo was among my dad's effects. He had had it for many years, as I can remember seeing it as a young boy. He may have picked it up at one of the Flotilla 2 reunions he attended. Unfortunately, the resolution of the LCI(L)-13 LTIN in his copy of the photo is no more conclusive than that of the digital copy you posted.

 

John,

Have you tried scanning your father's photo in high resolution? The level of detail revealed this way by apparently poor (to the naked eye or even using a magnifying lens) analog prints is often surprising!

Michel

 

I've seen LCI(L)35 (LTIN 424) with a large, solid circle painted below the LTIN band/number on the front of the conn. Can anyone shed any light the significance of that marking?

 

John,

This looks like a solid disc only because of the poor scan quality. This is actually the 3 British Infantry Division emblem painted of the bridge and sometimes the funnel sides of many (if not all) major craft which carried that Division's troops and vehicles to SWORD on D Day. See for example here:


ALLIED PREPARATIONS FOR D-DAY.IWM Non Commercial Licence

This emblem is also visible on all LCI(L) in the photo shot at Newhaven. Many craft proudly kept this emblem on long after after D Day.

This practice apparently dates back to the North African landings. See the first and fifth photos of LCI(L) 9 here:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/10/15/150009.htm

Michel

 

A few more samples of 3 Br Inf Div emblem on LCT:

On bridge. Note the clearly different shades of the Green Invasion Band and the Red disk with Black triangles:

BeelBank WO2 photo 8727:


Library and Archives Canada photo PA-141526:


British Pathé clip 1941.05 Frame 257:


On funnel sides
British Pathé clip 1941.04 Frame 158:


Post D Day (31 Oct 44 at Ostend prior to Op INFATUATE II). LCT 979 was part of 41 LCT Flotilla, 'N' LCT Squadron during D Day, but retained the emblem even after it was transferred to 22 Flotilla, 'N' Squadron and got a new paint jod with its Invasion band painted over:
Royal Marines Museum Walcheren Exhibition:


Some LCI(L) had the emblem painted on the bows, like LCI(L) 384 and 385 (395) here:
British Pathé clip 2115.10 Frame 79:


Michel

 

Michel,

Great bunch of PICs! Thank you! Nice clear images of the 3 British Infantry Division emblem.

Had seen many (though not all) of those PICs on the Navsource site, but not those on the other sites.

The IWM link is fantastic. Had never been to that site before, but I can see I'll be spending some time there in future.
I had a bit of a problem when searching their photo collection with queries such as "Newhaven" or "LCI(L)": many photos show up, but only the description for many others and just the IWM logo where photo should be. Maybe a browser incompatibility issue or something? When I just look through the photos at random, that problem does not arise. Even going through them in that way (at random) is utterly fascinating. Really gives one a window into and appreciation for a different time and place.

Thanks so much!

 

I'm curious about the roman numeral or "V" marking too. My grandad wrote about his LCI(L) being 38V, and that he did around 40 trips across the channel.

Rgds, H2T OZ

 

'V' is the letter (not roman numeral) of the LCT Squadron, while '16' is the Flotilla number.

'V' LCT Sqn had only LCT Mark 3, so LCI(L) 38 couldn't have been part of it. Plus it was a US LCI(L). Maybe it was some sort of code?

Michel

 

Thanks Michel,

My grandad wrote about Commando training prior to D-day, and he was stationed at HMS Newt in Newhaven at the time.

Could it be possible that he was with the Assault Group S2 ??

H2T OZ

 

Hi Michel,

I have recently been given some of my grandfathers memoirs which also include d-day landing info.

My past mentioning of LCI(L) 38 was a misread, and it was actually LCI(L) 380 that he wrote about.

After a quick net surf there was mention of LCI(L) 380 (F) in the 262nd Flotilla for Sword Beach, but
not a lot of info or pics available unfortunately.

I hope that there is some kind of information to support my grandfather's memoirs, and maybe a
pic somewhere.

Regards,

H2T OZ

 

Hi,
LCI(L) 380 was part of 263 Flotilla, “I” Squadron, Assault Group S2.

262 Flotilla was manned by the Royal Canadian Navy.

Newhaven. On the 5th June Groups 11, 12 and 15 (263 LCI(L) Flotilla, 40 LCT Flotilla, 42 LCT Flotilla, 48 LCT Flotilla) assembled in the pre sailing area a.m.

263 LCI(L) Flotilla, 40 LCT Flotilla, 42 LCT Flotilla and 48 LCT Flotilla sailed from Newhaven at 12.45 hours on the 5th June.

Regards

Danny

 

Hi Danny,

Thank you for confirming.

I wonder if the reference to the suffix "(F)" after 380 has any particular meaning?

It is mentioned in the following link for Stanley Galik's page on LCI (L) 35;

http://www.galik.com/stanleygalik1922/lci/lci11.htm


The Invasion Landings at Sword Beach

LCI (L) 35 landed with Flotilla 2, Group 4 Division 8 of the USS LCIs assigned to the "I" Landing Craft Tank Squadron under the command of Lt. Commander M.O.W. Miller, RN.**
According to both Tony Chapman and Richard Anderson, the LCI (L) 35 was part of the Intermediate Group S2 (second wave) assigned to carry English soldiers. In addition to the US LCIs,
Miller's squadron was comprised of the British 251st and 263rd LCI (L) Flotillas in company with the 40th, 42nd, and 48th LCT Flotillas (Mk4's).

There were a total of 10 USS LCIs participating in the landing at Sword Beach.

These included LCI (L): 9, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 33, 35, 193, and 283.
The 251st LCI (L) Flotilla was comprised of LCIs: 180 (F), 130, 131, 134, 183, and 291.
The 263rd LCI (L) Flotilla included LCIs: 380 (F), 126, 164, 165, 169, 171, 179, 181, 300, 377, 378, and 379.

The Queen Red Assault Troops from the 8th Infantry Brigade included the following:


1st Special Service Force
3rd Commando
4th Commando
6th Commando


45th Royal Marine Commando
79th Squadron, 5th Assault Regimen, RE
2nd East Yorkshire Regiment


Any reference to this or anything associated to LCI (L) 380 would be highly appreciated.

Regards,

Gavin H2T OZ

 

"(F)" means "Flagship", but it did happen that the actual Flotilla Flagship on D Day was not the one listed as such.

Michel

 

Does anyone know which Landingcraft carried the French Commandos attached to No4 Commando?
And maybe the skippers?

Thanks

Lawrence

 

Thanks Michel,

Your information is highly appreciated.

Rgds,
Gavin H2T OZ