"Cheek" guns on Liberator variants--LB30 and nose-turret models

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by TTH, Jan 5, 2014.

  1. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    As Liberator fans know well, the early USAAF combat version of the Liberator (B24D/E) carried three .50 caliber Browning MGs in flexible socket mounts in the greenhouse nose. Originally only one such gun was called for in the design, but the three-gun modification was introduced early on the production line. I suspect that units in the field had already added the two extra guns before this, though nothing I have read says so.

    Anyhow, even 3 x .50 in the greenhouse proved inadequate against head-on attacks, largely because of the limited traverse and command of the socket mounts. USAAF units in the Pacific installed some surplus tail turrets in the nose. These proved more effective against nose attacks, and became standard on factory-made Liberators.

    The LB30B or Liberator II was designed for the RAF and carried 12 x .303 MG. A small number of these aircraft were requisitoned by the USAAF early in '42 and modified with American guns and equipment. These served in the NEI and Australia, the Aleutians, and Panama, side by side with B24D's. According to what I've read, standard armament on the Americanized LB30 was 8 x .50 MG, with 2 x each in the tail and top turrets and single guns in the tunnel, left and right waist, and nose positions. Does anyone know if the LB30's were ever modified take to 3 x .50 in the greenhouse, like their B24D comrades? It would seem to make sense to me, especially as the two models were operating side by side in the same units.

    I have seen a few photos of USAAF Liberators in the Pacific with what look like socket gun mounts (but no guns) in the 'cheek' windows on either side of the nose, abaft the nose turret. Were cheek guns ever actually mounted on any of the nose turret versions of the Liberator?
     
  2. Tony Williams

    Tony Williams Member

    I don't know the answer to your first question, but as far as the second point is concerned I very much doubt that the cheek guns ever coexisted with the nose turret. As I understand it, each flexible gun needed its own gunner, which resulted in a very crowded nose with three guns. The turret and supporting installations would have occupied a lot of space, so probably not enough room (or maybe weight margin) for two flexible gunners as well.
     
  3. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

    As far as I'm aware, the LB.30 (Liberator II) didn't carry nose armament. One of the first Marks to be equipped with the flexible gun mounts in the nose-piece was the B-24C.The nine B-24Cs built (S/N 40-2378 to 40-2386) were used as test aircraft Ultimately many B-24Ds entered combat with a socket in the right side of the greenhouse and another socket in the left side of the nose, installed in a new window located between the edge of the greenhouse and the existing small navigators side window . The -C model Liberators were delivered to the Army Air Corps in December 1941 to February 1942 and served as test aircraft. Consolidated used them to gear up for full-scale production of the B-24D and the Air Corps used them for test and training. No B-24Cs were used in combat.
    The problem of inadequate forward fire-power in the B-24D was well known, and it was members of the 90th Bomb Group who pioneered the efforts to mount a Consolidated tail turret in the nose of a B-24D.

    As I have said, I can find no evidence that the LB.30 carried the greenhouse armament, I have quite a few photos of this type and none show this equipment.

    15 of the LB.30s were sent to the Philippines by the 7th Bomb Group, with 12 actually arriving. Of these, 7 were written of during the early months of 1942, and another was destroyed by the Japanese attack on Darwin.

    The attachment shows one of the first 'cheek' installations on B-24C serial 40-2384
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    I think I read somewhere that the cheek guns were used by the navigator and bombardier on an ad hoc basis. Not positive about that though.

    The B-29 bombardier had a gun sight for the plane's remote turret system.
     
  5. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

  6. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Orwell, a member on this forum, informs me via private message that USAAF nose-turret Liberators in the Pacific did have the option to carry cheek guns. This was a theater modification, not found elsewhere. B24s in the Pacific moved the navigator's station to the rear of the cockpit, which allowed some space up front for additional armament. The guns were only .30 caliber, rather than the standard .50, but the .30 could do some damage against lightly built Jap fighters like the Zero and Oscar. The navigator would come forward to man the guns when needed and when free from his normal duties. This all comes from a book called Consolidated Mess, a work Orwell swears is the Bible for Liberators in USAAF service.

    The question of the three-gun nose modification on USAAF LB30B's still remains semi-open.
     
  7. Orwell1984

    Orwell1984 Senior Member

    [​IMG]
    http://mmpbooks.biz/mmp/books.php?book_id=167

    For those interested here's the info on the book mentioned above. It really goes into a lot, and I mean nitpicky anoraky details, on the nose turreted B-24s in USAAF service. Author is working on books on transport, anti-submarine and pre nose turret B-24s as well.
     
  8. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    Wow, that is a narrow topic for a book!
     
  9. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Dave,

    I have a couple of books from Mushroom.

    One regarding the Me262 and the other covering the career of Adolf Galland.

    Both are excellent reading.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  10. Dave55

    Dave55 Atlanta, USA

    This is the most narrowly focused one I have. Family thought I was nuts, of course. :)
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Peter Clare

    Peter Clare Very Senior Member

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