Afghanistan, The Honour of Capt. Robert Semrau

Discussion in 'Postwar' started by 17thDYRCH, Jul 12, 2010.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Drew - you are not attacking the whole Canadian Military ? - yet you call me out for not having current experience with them - make up your mind as you seem to be crawling back somewhere -

    I do believe that the present generation will never achieve parity with mine as they have little respect for anyone or anything, and they all seem to know more than anyone else !

    Tom, I slated one Canadian SSM to disprove the piece of the article I quoted.


    How is 'calling you out' attacking the Canadian military. I was just making the point that you served with them 65 years ago and me 5 years ago which would make me, in my opinion, a bit more qualified on an experience level to comment on the current Canadian Army on operations than you. No more than you would be over me, if we were discussing the Canadians in Italy during 1943 to 1945.

    I do believe that the present generation will never achieve parity with mine as they have little respect for anyone or anything, and they all seem to know more than anyone else


    Assuming you are aiming that remark at my generation and the younger ones would I be correct in thinking that Captain Robert Semrau fall into that remark to ? He is only 6 years my junior after all.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  2. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Drew - well no he does not come under that category as he is a leader of men and thus has had the education- training - and instilled with the reponsibility of having respect for and awareness of the needs of others - so no use trying to get away with that one....

    the present civilian generation is lacking respect for all as can be read in most newpapers all around the world - the people- and they are legion - taking advantage of the benefits system in the UK are perhaps - a natural product of that - and example for the future generations. Disabilities notwithstanding...
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    We'll have to agree to disagree Tom.

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  4. wtid45

    wtid45 Very Senior Member

    TOM CANNING "the present civilian generation is lacking respect for all as can be read in most newpapers all around the world - the people- and they are legion - taking advantage of the benefits system in the UK are perhaps - a natural product of that - and example for the future generations. Disabilities notwithstanding". Thats quite a sweeping statement I have not worked for six years and I get benefits so I must be one of them..........but you do not know my circumstances nor would it seem that you care to know, as for respect regardless of age it is earnt and as one who growing up had older parents one who served in Burma and the other who was aged 10 on 8 May 1945, having lived throught the Blitz in London, I already knew those 'Older' people they were my parents;) and through them I had a ready made guide if you like........ but regardless if your rude or ignorant you can be young or old it makes no difference im 40 and I get abuse of the local kids on the BMX track while walking my dogs, on the other hand some of the older people around where I live are the rudest most ignorant you would ever care to meet so Tom care to rephrase your comments.
     
  5. britman

    britman Senior Member

    TOM CANNING "the present civilian generation is lacking respect for all as can be read in most newpapers all around the world - the people- and they are legion - taking advantage of the benefits system in the UK are perhaps - a natural product of that - and example for the future generations. Disabilities notwithstanding". Thats quite a sweeping statement I have not worked for six years and I get benefits so I must be one of them..........but you do not know my circumstances nor would it seem that you care to know, as for respect regardless of age it is earnt and as one who growing up had older parents one who served in Burma and the other who was aged 10 on 8 May 1945, having lived throught the Blitz in London, I already knew those 'Older' people they were my parents;) and through them I had a ready made guide if you like........ but regardless if your rude or ignorant you can be young or old it makes no difference im 40 and I get abuse of the local kids on the BMX track while walking my dogs, on the other hand some of the older people around where I live are the rudest most ignorant you would ever care to meet so Tom care to rephrase your comments.

    Well said that man.
     
  6. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    What exactly did the Canadian Airborne Regiment do in Somalia to get itself disbaned?
    I remember a Canadian Veteran of both world wars telling me about some naughtness going on back in the early 1990s but I never got to the bottom of what happened.

    Just found this on the Canadian Army website.
    The Canadian Airborne Regiment - Army.ca

    The Regiment became embroiled in controversy over "the Somalia incident" wherein a civilian prisoner in custody was brutally beaten and murdered. The incident led to public scrutiny of the unit and other information came to light involving hazing rituals, questionable discipline and other shooting incidents in Somalia. The Regiment was disbanded,
     
  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Wtid/ Britman -
    so your newpapers Tv reports etc are all full of lies and there are no people at all in the Uk taking advantage of the many benefits available whether earned or not - now that just shows that one should not take all these account as being truthful and the only people taking advantage are those who sit in Parliament and fudge their expenses - there's a wonderful example !

    and for those who haven't worked for a while owing to some difficulty or other - you have my sympathy but the fact that you suffer abuse from an even younger generation surely proves my point...

    Owen -
    SOME Canadian Paratroops went off line and killed a Somalian and were dealt with and the whole of the paratroop regiment was dis-banded - quite rightly in most Canadan's view as being not fit for purpose - but that does not in any way - again - in MY view to be similar to the present case. As Maj.Gen.Lewis MacKenzie says- that should have been left on the Battlefield - the Somalian case was rightly murder.
     
  8. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

  9. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Rich -
    you are certainly right on that one - we are having a bad week - been waiting for that one to come up.....he deserves all that he will get.....no matter his position !
    Cheers
     
  10. canuck

    canuck Token Colonial Patron

    This is a disgraceful verdict - he has been demoted to second Lt. with the opportunity of staying in the Army - that is nonsense as he will be in purgatory as it is in all his records - and he will stay at that rank forever so his only chance is to leave them to get on with it - not that they can win - the British are on the fifth round there with 2 won and 2 lost - and looks like another loss coming up- the Russina crept our after losing - we shall be doing the same - why we bothered is beyond me as these people have been living the same life for 3000 years - and not about to change - just Orange the poppy fields and let them grow cabbages..why this hasn't been done already is also beyond me...
    Cheers

    I agree Tom, the verdict and sentence are a travesty.
    Lou McKenzie commented on it today and made many of the points you raised. Rarely discussed are those few occurences where a mercy killing involves one of your own. While everyone is accountable there are situations where the rule book does not and should not apply. I don't profess to understand the first thing about being in combat but the decision made in seconds by Semrau has been picked over now for 2 years by non-combatants.
    Also just coming to light is the fact that the incident was reported well after the fact by one of Semrau's own 4 man team. The individual in question was apparently not performing well in combat and was at risk of being removed from the combat team.
    Revenge seems a pitiful motive to justify ruining this fine officers career but human nature once again reigns supreme!

    My best wishes to Capt. Semrau and for his future. I hope some organization recognizes the morality and character of this man and recruits him.
     
  11. britman

    britman Senior Member

    Wtid/ Britman -
    so your newpapers Tv reports etc are all full of lies and there are no people at all in the Uk taking advantage of the many benefits available whether earned or not - now that just shows that one should not take all these account as being truthful and the only people taking advantage are those who sit in Parliament and fudge their expenses - there's a wonderful example !

    and for those who haven't worked for a while owing to some difficulty or other - you have my sympathy but the fact that you suffer abuse from an even younger generation surely proves my point...

    Owen -
    SOME Canadian Paratroops went off line and killed a Somalian and were dealt with and the whole of the paratroop regiment was dis-banded - quite rightly in most Canadan's view as being not fit for purpose - but that does not in any way - again - in MY view to be similar to the present case. As Maj.Gen.Lewis MacKenzie says- that should have been left on the Battlefield - the Somalian case was rightly murder.

    My issue isn't with 2nd Lt Semrau and his treatment, but your statement about the younger generation.
     
  12. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Canuck
    can only say "Hear Hear" to that and trust that someone will recognise his worth - many things happen in combat which should stay there - and this was certainly one of those events -

    no doubt the originator of the report will be conscience free for the rest of his life and have no doubt that Capt Semrau has already forgiven him for his trouble - and the jury for their decsion.

    Cheers
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Britman -

    your comments really then belong to a new thread -The subject was CAPTAIN Semrau however had you read WTiD's comments fairly - you would have noted that he is abused by his younger generation on his daily walks with his dog - thus proving my point.

    WTiD then went on to point out that many "older" people - obviously reverting back to my generation - were also ignorant and abusive which appears to be redundent as we all know that what is known as the lower socio-economic group can hardly qualify for Mensa ratings - in ANY generation.

    A further proof of my thinking is the tale- to-day - of the man who works as a roofer earning 90,000GBP and has swindled the Benefits fund in order to send his two sons to a good school -then has the gaul to flee to Australia before coming back to face the music, that to me - is a complete case of non respect- and I did note that he is of a younger generation than mine - but obviously he is alone in all this cheating ?
    Cheers
     
  14. britman

    britman Senior Member

    Britman -

    your comments really then belong to a new thread -The subject was CAPTAIN Semrau however had you read WTiD's comments fairly - you would have noted that he is abused by his younger generation on his daily walks with his dog - thus proving my point.

    WTiD then went on to point out that many "older" people - obviously reverting back to my generation - were also ignorant and abusive which appears to be redundent as we all know that what is known as the lower socio-economic group can hardly qualify for Mensa ratings - in ANY generation.

    A further proof of my thinking is the tale- to-day - of the man who works as a roofer earning 90,000GBP and has swindled the Benefits fund in order to send his two sons to a good school -then has the gaul to flee to Australia before coming back to face the music, that to me - is a complete case of non respect- and I did note that he is of a younger generation than mine - but obviously he is alone in all this cheating ?
    Cheers

    Maybe this should be on a new thread, but you cannot tell me that older generations never pulled any kind of shit like this. You are viewing that your generation never did that kind of thing. I disagree.

    Anyways, for 2nd Lt Semrau, I truly feel sorry for him. It should've been kept on the battlefield. I hope he has true support from friends and family to get him through this period and come out the other side smiling.
     
  15. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Britman -
    you may be right that my generation was just as guilty of some of the stuff that you claim - I would certainly agree with that but - in defence I would have to say it was not on such a scale- having said that - the reason for all the container ships to-day was to prevent the scale of thieving that was going on at the docks - especially in the time of shortages - but this again if memory serves was the generation after mine - to-day we are seeing numbers of 9 -10 -11 year olds committing all sorts of horrendous crimes - just yesterday 9 year olds selling drugs in a shool playground ....indicating that something has gone wrong with the discipline we knew in our day - it was character building - they said - and it was !

    I am also pleased that you wish Capt. Semrau well, and his past and character assures me that he will be well thought of and will pull through this trial with a smile back on the faces of his family.

    Cheers
     
  16. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    Very late in the day and I can see this thread has caused a bit of a firestorm.

    Wtid45 brings to the thread a Toronto Star article which reinforces Capt. Semrau's excellent record as an officer with the British 2nd Para. His record with Canadian Forces was unblemished.

    Andy dives in with a large part of a slag against a Canadian SSM while serving in Bosnia.

    Owen dives in with another topic concerning the " Somalia Affair " and the Canadian Airborne Regiment.

    Britman debates a no win topic that will go on for generations.

    So, as the author of the original posting of this topic let's address each point.

    Andy, Bosnia and WW2 and Afghanistan are light years apart. There can be no debate with Tom on that. Bosnia was UN forces watching and ducking. Afghanistan deals with an incontrovertible enemy that can blend in to the civilian population. An enemy that has no uniform. An enemy, through the use of IED's, that has killed hundreds of British, American and Canadian soldiers.
    Major General Lewis Mackenzie was the head of UN forces in Bosnia. He has stated publicly that the incident surrounding Capt. Semrau should have been left on the battlefield. If you want to start another thread on Bosnia, I say bring it on. Or another thread concerning the competency of Canadian military in general, let's discuss. I know several Canadian generals in ww2 were less than competent. A greater number of British and American generals were also less than competent. At that time we should also discuss the UN and Rwanda, rules of engagement, size of the UN forces, etc. I wasn't there. You were.

    Owen, the Somalia Affair was indeed a blemish on Canadian Airborne Regiment. The PM at the time was the Rt. Hon. Jean Chretien, a disciple of Pierre Elliot Trudeau commonly known as PET. Trudeau avoided military service duing WW2 and over time, as the PM, brought the Canadian Military to its knees. So, Mr. Chretien, which is spelled c.r.e.t.i.n, decided for the sake of his govt that it would be best to disband a regiment that had served with distinction in ww2.
    The British Brigadier S. James Hill, Commander, 3rd Para Brigade says the following in his foreword in the book 'Paras versus the Reich'

    The experienced and battle-hardened soldiers of the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion continued to build on their achievements and distinguished record. They were the only Canadian unit to participate in the battle of the Ardennes during the Christmas of 1944. They were also an integral part of the Allied Airborne Corps ( 6th British and 17th American Divisions ) that breached the German defences across the Rhine at Wesel. And, they played their full part in the final battle - the pursuit of the German Army and the collapse of the Reich.

    Britman, no mas, no mas...(Roberto Duran during the fight against Sugar Ray).
    The prior generation ( or you might be two generations removed from Tom's ) always wins. That brings a whole new thread which I would welcome called.... I'll let you fill in the blank.

    Canuck, my compatriot, says that a Canadian soldier serving under Capt Semrau ' shit the bed hard' . For that Capt. Semrau is days away from losing a career serving British and Canadians. For that I am sorry. I do hope some leader of commerce or similar will allow Mr. Semrau to continue on with his life.
    Excellent discussions.

    Cheers
    Randy
     
    Smudger Jnr and Stormbird like this.
  17. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    “I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was boy, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint.”
    Hesiod - c.700BC.

    "What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"
    Plato. c.C5th

    "The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and are tyrants over their teachers."
    Socrates - c.369-399 BC.

    "The world is passing through troubling times. The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."
    Peter the Hermit - c.C13th


    Thanks Adam, [was posted in another thread].
    :)

    See Tom, it's nothing new.

    I brought the Somalia Affair up as that article made out all Canadian soldeirs were angels.
    I'm sure Semaru could join the Foreign Legion if he still fancies a life in uniform.
    I agree it shouldn't have gone to court.
     
  18. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    As for the girls, they are forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress."
    Peter the Hermit - c.13th C



    Just in case anyone was wondering why Peter was a Hermit :lol:
     
  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Randy- There was no UN in Bosnia when I was there -It was a NATO Operation. Bosnia and Afghanistan aren't light years apart as the troops in the main from when I was in Bosnia are more than likely pushing time or have in Afghanistan in the last 5 years. Infact I know several mates I served with in Bosnia have pushed two tours in 'Stan.

    Randy with respect you may wish to look at who was killing who in Bosnia and what they were wearing. In the most part apart from the Serbian Army many were civilians-after all it was more a civil war than a convential one and before Afghanistan many Muslim civilians fought in Bosnia and assuming they are still alive moved to Iraq and Afghanistan years ago.

    My point about the SSM (Which you appear to have missed) was to disprove the news article that all Canadian Soldiers are great-No Army is full of wonderful soldiers-Even the British Army did its fair share of war crimes in Iraq. I'm not slagging all Canadian soldiers off-Just most of the ones I've served with which is minute in comparrison to the whole Canadian Army. Even the Canadian Squadron Clerk still looked ugly after six months in country.

    Taliban Gunman captures wounded Royal Marine on the battlefield and because he thinks the Marine doesn't have long to live the Taliban Gunman kills the wounded Marine with a double tap to the chest after his mates kick the shit out of him and spit on him.

    He should be let off too then as he was being kind by putting him out of his misery?

    If this officer had any common and wanted to do the right thing he would have stuck some morphine (It wouldn't take a lot to do the job) in him and left him (Possibly with a grenade under his body, assuming this is allowed today) for his mates to recover as they do with all their dead when they can.
     
  20. 17thDYRCH

    17thDYRCH Senior Member Patron

    Andy

    Thanks for the update. I will concede that my knowledge of the conflict in Bosnia is limited. I do recommend your treatment of wounded Taliban. especially the grenade part.;):D
    Cheers from the land of many Canucks.:canflag[1]:

    Randy
     

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