Why does the British Army have more horses than tanks?

Discussion in 'Postwar' started by dbf, Jun 20, 2013.

  1. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-22951548


    Why does the Ministry of Defence have more horses than it does tanks?

    Britain's armed forces are undergoing huge changes.

    Redundancies have been confirmed ahead of the release next week of a UK government spending review which is expected to announce a 1% increase in military equipment budgets, but also 5% reduction in spending overall.
    Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander has praised the MoD's plans to shave millions of pounds off its procurement budget.


    In an interview with Sky News, the Lib Dem MP for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey said: "In a department where there are more horses than tanks, there is room for efficiency savings."

    The MoD's official figures show the British Army does indeed have more horsepower of the four leg variety, than the heavy metal.

    An MoD spokesman said that as of July 2012 - the most up-to-date figures available - there were 501 horses and 334 tanks, which includes the Challenger 2 main battle tank.



    The spokesman added that the department was making no comment on what Mr Alexander had said to Sky.
    The British Army has not used horses in a combat role since World War I, when a million were sent to the frontline and only about 62,000 survived.
    During World War II, Gen Orde Wingate and his British Chindit raiders used horses and mules to carry supplies behind enemy lines in Burma.
    The animals had their voice boxes removed to prevent them from braying and alerting Japanese patrols.
    Today, horses fulfil a purely ceremonial role going back hundreds of years.
    Two mounted elements survive in the modern British Army.
    The Household Cavalry was formed in 1661 on the orders of King Charles II and now consists of the Life Guards and the Blues and Royals, the oldest regiments in the Army.
    The other is the King's Troop Royal Horse Artillery. Its troopers drive teams of six horses pulling World War I saluting guns.


    Both the cavalry and horse artillery were on show on Saturday when 200 horses were a feature of the Trooping of the Colour.
    The occasion marked the Queen's official birthday but also continued a military tradition going back to the early 1700s.
    Horses and troopers, the men and women who take charge of the animals, are also trotted out for other Royal events, such as weddings and jubilees, as well as for Remembrance Sunday at London's Cenotaph, the Lord Mayor's Show and state occasions.
    Behind the pomp and ceremony, the troopers are tasked with protecting the Queen and her family. They also regularly serve overseas on operations and have frequently been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan, riding out on patrols in tracked Warrior armoured-personnel carriers.
    But according to the British Army's An Introduction to the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment, the ceremonial duties also send out a message to the rest of the world about the Army's operational capabilities.
    The document says: "For a country with global interests these roles offer a powerful symbol of our operational military heritage, whilst enhancing the standing of the Sovereign and the Nation before both national and international audiences."


    Meanwhile, the tank has been a key feature of the British Army ever since World War I.
    Challenger battle tanks were sent to former Yugoslavia during the Balkans War in the 1990s and were used in the US-UK invasion of Iraq in March 2003.
    But under its Future Force 2020 programme to reshape the armed forces, the government has proposed that the Army significantly reduce its number of Challenger 2 tanks.
    "All through the history of the tank it has always been thought to be at the end of its life," said David Willey, curator of The Tank Museum.


    "The tank was invented to bring mobility back to the First World War battlefield and at the end of the war they were brought back here to Bovington and chopped up for scrap.
    "The thinking was that we would not need tanks again because we were never going to have a war like that again.
    "But in the late 1920s on Salisbury Plain what was to be a three-day exercise was held involving the traditional infantry on foot, horse-drawn artillery and cavalry against a mechanised force including tanks.
    "By midday of day one the mechanised element had won the exercise."
    Mr Willey said forward-thinking members of the top brass, many of them who had served on or seen the potential of tanks in World War I, pushed the British Army towards mechanisation.
    Other countries such as the US had almost abandoned the use of tanks. Even in World War II, the armies of Germany and Russia continued to rely heavily on horses.
    Mr Willey said the future of tanks was questioned at the end of that war and also the Cold War between the West and the Soviet Eastern Bloc.
    Concerns have included advances in anti-tank technology which can allow a single combatant to damage, or destroy, a big, expensive tank with a relatively low-cost handheld weapon.
    "You could say we are experiencing another wobble over the future of tanks now," said the curator.


    But he said the British Army was not alone and other European countries have also been looking at the future of their tank fleets.
    However, Mr Willey believed the machines will continue to be a relevant tool not only on the battlefield, but even in counter-insurgency operations.
    He said: "In Iraq, the infantry loved it when they had this massive great lump behind them. British tanks were not deployed to Afghanistan, but British soldiers used Danish and Canadian tanks on operations.
    "The Danish officer in charge was quoted saying that 'there were days we didn't have to fight because we turned up with our tanks'."
    Douglas Young, a reservist who served in the headquarters of the UK's 1st Armoured Division throughout the first Gulf War, said horses versus tanks was an interesting debate.
    The chairman of the British Armed Forces Federation said: "The figures don't necessarily mean we have got too many horses, it's more likely the figures mean we don't have enough tanks.
    "There were quite a number of horses on parade at the Trooping of the Colour on Saturday. I was there and many people will have watched it on TV.
    "If the country doesn't want ceremonial occasions such as the Trooping of the Colour it can say so,"
    Mr Young said a more important question for people was whether or not they were prepared to pay for the Army, Royal Navy and RAF to be properly equipped and resourced.
    He added: "Recent operations such as Iraq have been very controversial, but think back to what happened in the Balkans."
    Mr Young said atrocities amid the collapse of Yugoslavia caused a public outcry and required military intervention by Britain and its Nato allies.
    "Something like the Balkans could happen again," he said.
     

    Attached Files:

    Chris C likes this.
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    cos we're bloody good at the ceremonial stuff that tourists from all over the world like to see and you cant drive a Chally2 up a mountain in Afghan , or can you?
     
  3. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Old Hickory Recon

    Perhaps start using the tanks in those ceremonies, Owen?

    Perhaps not, though, as it would give the event a rather bolshevik aire.
     
  5. South

    South Member

    Horses cost less!

    Found out on Tuesday that my husband hasn't been made redundant...for now...
     
  6. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    It should also be recalled that MOST of our M.P. today have never served in the Services - nor ever been shot at - they have only ever put the cost of all Forces against what they can add to their pensions....and very soon we won't be able to

    prevent the population of Luxembourg for example from landing on the beaches from barges as we expected the Nazi's in 1940.....we shall soon be defenceless....but they will still have their pensions....

    Many ex Cavalry Regiments STILL have Horses for the social aspects of Military life as we discovered at the end of the Italian Campaign in Austria when we had an Officer attached for rations straight from the Uk - who decreed that inasmuch

    as we were a Cavalry mob - we would have horses and we would refresh and learn to ride....and so it was that some of the squadron were up before dawn to exercise and clean out the stables while the rest of us slept on. This came to halt

    one day when a horse was introduced from another squadron - by a very cunning sergeant and ridden by this officious Officer - as always through the village - over the river - BUT - under the expectant eyes of the whole squadron - the new

    horse decided it was bath time and lay down in the icy river depositing the riding master in the ice - we never did see him again so Horses have more uses than just being ridden and fed

    Owen - the Germans- and many British thought that Longstop Hill could not be climbed....until Gerry's "B" squadron's Churchills came along - then it was "oops " from BOTH sides...

    Cheers
     
  7. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Not just that aspect, ripping up Horse Guards Parade with Battle Tanks I would think is not part of the plan for Trooping the Colour.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  8. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

    Interesting pic despite the poor quality of The King's Own Yorkshire Dragoons entering Soueida, Syria, July of 1941.

    Regards
     

    Attached Files:

    dbf likes this.
  9. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    I guess tanks are not very useful for the internal security/policing/anti insurgent role that the British Army has spent much of the last 200 years carrying out.

    The Kings Troop Royal Horse Artillery is a different matter. I do not mind paying my taxes for them. I have seen them many time over the decades and they are always the most thrilling of sights. I used to see them practising near St Johns Wood Barracks (not in full dress), see them firing salutes in Hyde Park and Green Park and doing their musical rides etc at shows.

    Nothing can compare with the sight of them entering the park, forming line abreast, the trumpet sounds and they work up into a gallop. Hooves thunder, guns bounce, harness jingles and horses break into a sweat. They slew round 180 degrees and come to a halt in perfect unison, unlimber and prepare to fire. Having fired they do the whole in reverse. The amazing thing is that I have been in Hyde Park when they have fired a salute and I have been about the only person there.

    With a bit of luck and good timing you can find them lurking in a side street waiting to set off. Again there will be no spectators. The horses get a final groom and have their hooves polished. An orderly polished the officers boots one last time and then the order is given the trumpet sound and off they go.

    Sometimes a touch of humour, for me anyway. While firing a salute an orderly lost control of the officers charger which took off towards the horizon. I could not hear what the officer said but he took the orderly's horse leaving the poor unhappy fellow to run off after the horse still in his full dress uniform.

    Happy days.

    Did I mention that I like the RHA?

    Mike.
     
    dbf likes this.
  10. Roxy

    Roxy Senior Member

    Rather than getting rid of horses, could we - perhaps - buy more tanks?

    Roxy
     
  11. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Roxy

    OR get rid of the politicians ....?......for attempting to make us defenceless - constantly...

    Cheers
     
    Roxy likes this.
  12. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    http://www.mark-1-tank.co.uk/challenger-2.html
    ;)
     
    Roxy likes this.
  13. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I'm still very proud to say that the British Army had more tanks on Telic One than the Americans, I know, I was there 'Big Grin' :lol:

    Ps the Challi pisses all over the Abrams too ;)
     
    Roxy likes this.
  14. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    I think perhaps the question should be how can the French support significantly more tanks, troops, aircraft, naval vessels on a military budget somewhat less (by several billion Euros) than the UK military.

    The French can do good military parades too (almost up to our standards) with plenty of mounted troops and bands.

    I think it is a matter of budget management and military priority, in which we (in the UK) seem to be failing.
     
  15. Bluebell Minor

    Bluebell Minor Junior Member

    I seem to remember reading that the Gurkha Brigade were using mules/horses to resupply isolated Patrol Bases/Border Guard Posts in the Hong Kong New Territories in the 1970s

    Can any one confirm?
     
  16. TijgerB

    TijgerB Member

    Hey try to count how many Admirals you got. And then how many ships are still in the Royal Navy. The result might surprise some :biggrin:
     
  17. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Why shouldn't there be more horses than Tanks?
    I don't really understand the statement.
    How many tanks are needed?
    How many Horses are needed?
    The two questions are separate (unless you want to work out a pure horse/tank cost ratio... and I'd be prepared to bet that one Challenger 2 with ammunition, service, upgrades, maintenance, etc is the equivalent of... errr... quite a lot of horses.)

    Political deflection. Make a simple, essentially true, but meaningless statement that the media can easily hang a hat on which obfuscates the real & far more complex questions.
    BBB.
     
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  18. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I shan't worry unless the number of horses in the army should exceed the number of asses in parliament (currently 650, I believe).
     
  19. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Crunching numbers a few months ago for a thread on another forum I was suprised to find the Italians...AND the Japanese!...have larger armed forces than we do!

    I wouldn't be suprised to find the Greeks do too...

    Something's very wrong somewhere.
     
  20. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Don't get me started on the Greek Army....Scruffy bastards :lol:
     

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