Was Baldur Von Schirach a spy?

Discussion in 'The Third Reich' started by Michael Varn, Jul 25, 2020.

  1. Michael Varn

    Michael Varn New Member

    This guy was one of the big wigs from Nazi Germany, but may not be as recognizable as the usual suspects. What drew my attention to this guy was from my general studies of WW2, when I found out that he was connected to Charleston S.C. through genealogy research. That is where I am from, and I did some digging. This guy was not a garden variety German, in fact he should never have lived in Germany at all. It gets even weirder. I still cannot figure out exactly what crime he committed, even at all! But he got 20 at Nurmberg. It said he signed a transportation order. Now, he was the Supreme commander of the Hitler youth, of which we are all familiar with, but he got transfered to the Reichstad later. He was basically an office manager. And he probably did not even know what he was signing. Of course the order pertained to the holocaust. Office managers always sign stuff without reading it. You know, "Please sign this." "O.K." and that's it! And that is not all. I have seen several pictures and archived video footage of this guy like all the others, but he looks like a completely different person every time. Like his face keeps changing! Sort if like that physiognomy thing that Nazis are obsessed with. There's more. Even Hitlers closest confidants warned him about this guy being way out of place. Like a fish out of water. That was some bizarre characteristic that BVS had all of his life. According to my research he should have been going to Harvard University, but no, he decided to hang out with the brownshirts who were a bunch of illiterate thugs.This does not make since ladies and gentlemen. His family had alot of money. Oh, and by the way, he was directly related to two signers of the Declaration of dependence of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! If you look at his complete geneology to his great grandparents most of them are from THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! I think Iam beginning to narrow down who BVS was spying for. I am not finished yet. I could not find anything about any academic credentials he may have had, but his IQ score was high, like 130. I think when the whole bunch were at Nurmberg, they had to take IQ tests. This guy seems smarter than most of the Hitler Elite. That doesn't make since either, because smart people do not murder 12 million people.With this being said, history says he was a bad guy. I am not trying to rewrite history, and I know this entire issue is of a highly sensitive nature, but we need to take a closer look at this guy. Like his own documentary on the History or Military Channel or something. Because if he was one of the good guys after all, we need to know it. But wait! Why didn't Hitler get rid of this guy? Mabey he had some obsession with quintessential WASP's from the U.S. It should have been obvious, like an elephant in the room. Don't take my word for it, read the writings of every other member of the Hitler Elite. They did not like him. There is of course, just one more thing. This is what inspired me to write about this. I saw a documentary on the History Channel showing BVS and others walking out of Spandue prison. Again this person that they said was BVM did not look like him at all. This had to be another person. I guess you can google it and see for yourself. There had to be some kind of body switch at some point. If he was a spy, he was the highest placed one of all. This means after the Nurmberg trial he was wisked away and placed in some sort of protective status at an undisclosed location. This means that the OSS(before the letter change to CIA) had to be involved. If anyone has more information on this guy, please chime in.
  2. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    I believe that he was amongst those officials briefed by Heydrich at Wannsee so he damn well knew what was going down. Lucky to get away with his neck intact
  3. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Baldur von Schirach was not at the Wannsee Conference which was chaired by Heydrich. Nevertheless he was found guilty at Nuremberg on Count 4 which was "Crimes against Humanity".Sentence ...20 years.

    There was only one other defendant at Nuremberg found guilty on Count 4 of "Crimes against Humanity" as a sole Count and that was Julius Streicher. He was a member of the Wannsee Conference.Sentence ....Death.

    While von Schirach was lucky to not to be sentenced to death,I would say Albert Speer was luckier in that he was found guilty on two Counts.Count 3,"War Crimes" and Count 4, "Crimes against Humanity" Sentence..... 20 years.
  4. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    I am simply unconvinced this Nazi was a spy, in part as his own post-release book was 'I believed in Hitler'. On a quick search I found no other allegations he was a spy; so many have researched Nazi Germany surely something would have been written. His mother married a German, who was himself born in the USA - so what?

    Incidentally a number of the links seen were from Russia, so best avoided.
  5. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    That's a pretty bizarre hypothesis. May I ask for at least rudimentary verifiable facts that go beyond Wikipedia entries?
    .At the moment this sounds more a reference to reality a la "Iron Skies"...
    alberk likes this.
  6. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian Patron

    It doesn't even go as far as wikipedia.

    I mean let's look at a couple of quotes from wikipedia!
    - Schirach "became a member of the Nazi Party (NSDAP) in 1925"
    - "He was found guilty on 1 October 1946 of crimes against humanity for his role in the deportation of the Viennese Jews to certain death in German concentration camps located in German-occupied Poland."

    So "I cannot find exactly what crime he committed" is ridiculous. Further, 1925 is a pretty early date to join.

    The original poster is making a bunch of very large projections and assumptions and frankly, I'm disgusted. "It said he signed a transportation order. Now, he was the Supreme commander of the Hitler youth, of which we are all familiar with, but he got transfered to the Reichstad later. He was basically an office manager. And he probably did not even know what he was signing. Of course the order pertained to the holocaust. Office managers always sign stuff without reading it. " I mean really? There is no way for me to read this other than "I have got an idea into my head and so I will twist the facts to suit my theory". Don't do this... it's gross.
    ltdan and alberk like this.
  7. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Indeed I erred - it wasn't Heydrich who briefed him but Hitler himself - in December 1941

    "Rather, the announcement was made before an official body that included his oldest and closest political comrades; some fifty people were present. His message was this: the destruction of the Jews was first and foremost a
    party matter. Subsequent events would confirm the party’s special role, in particular with regard to the extermination of German Jews. Some of those present at the announcement had already urged Hitler to take harsher steps against
    the Jews. These included such men as Joseph Goebbels; Karl Kaufmann; Baldur v. Schirach, "
    Gerlach also J. Roth, E. Maxwell Remembering for the Future

    However Himmler does seem to have forwarded copies of the Wannsee minutes to him in Vienna. The idea that he merely signed for a few transportation orders without knowing what they were is ludicrous - he authorised the mass deportation of Jews from Austria
    Chris C likes this.
  8. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Harry Ree's response.... looking at your post, you have also erred again...a claimed brief on a conference which had yet to be convened a month later.

    I was already preparing an insight on von Schirach's background and character following the OP's post.

    I think a study of von Schirach's political CV reveals his position as Gaulieter of Vienna and his attempts to recover his status as a party figure where he demonstrated his loyalty to the NAZI Party cause after being sidelined by Hitler resulting from being vilified by his enemies.This put him on the pathway to be found guilty by the Nuremberg Military Tribunal of Count 4,"Crimes against humanity."

    von Schirach had a genteel upbringing from a supposed aristocratic German - American family and born in Berlin.His mother was a Emma Tillou. The family was enthralled by music,theatre and literature and he himself showed early talent for poetry.He became disillusioned with the ruling classes and joined the NAZI Party at 18,serving as an SA man .A deep critic of Christianity,he became an anti Semite, influenced by Henry Ford's "The International Jew " and Houston Stewart Chamberlain's."The Foundations of the Nineteenth Century". Reflecting on his poetry, he became the party's Poet Laureate and with his upmost sycophantic traits set about to flatter Hitler and win Hitler's attention.

    Hitler was very impressed with von Schirach as the poet delivered flattering verses on "Germany's greatest son" and "A genius gazing the stairs"

    A poem dedicated to Hitler read:

    That is the greatest thing about him,
    That he is not only our Leader and a great hero,
    But himself upright,firm and simple,
    In him rests the roots of our world.
    And his soul touches the stars,
    And yet he remains a man like you and me.

    Hitler was enthralled and saw him as his protege..."a true follower and dependable lad"

    Then on 1 June 1933 Hitler appointed von Schirach as the Youth Leader of the Third Reich ,a post which he sought to reeducate German youth in the spirit of National Socialism.His empire expanded when Hitler banned all youth groups save for the new youth organisation,the Hitler Youth and von Schirach became its first leader.

    By 1940 von Schirach's standing was on the wane and Artur Axmann replaced him as one of Hitler's favourite fighting men to head the Hitler Youth. Von Schirach's loss of post was due to his vilification by his enemies...ridiculed and the subject of jokes, he was regarded as effeminate and reference was made to his marital bedroom being all white and feminine.His presence in Bavaria was ridiculed as a transplanted Berliner in Lederhosen. He seems not to have had a party function after losing the leadership of the Hitler Youth in 1940 until July 1941 when Hitler sidelined him to Vienna as Gauleiter,a post which was regarded as of less importance.

    On taking over the party role of Gauleiter of Vienna von Schirach made a speech on 25 July 1941, defending the Third Reich policy of deporting Jews to the ghettoes of the East as "a contribution to European culture".At Nuremberg,Von Schirach was found ,while not involved in the origin of the policy of deporting Jews from Vienna,he participated in their deportation.Further he was incriminated from evidence found in his office describing the extermination of Jews.

    The Wannsee Conference was convened on 20 January 1942.(15 attendees and 30 copies of minutes),The question to be put is how did Hitler or any other party official brief von Schirach on a Conference which was yet to be held.

    (As regards von Schirach admission to Hitlers inner circle,apart from his party role,that came about because he married Henny Hoffmann,daughter of Heinrich Hoffmann,Hitler's personal photographer.Hitler was delighted with the marriage but the pair divorced prior to the outbreak of war. Henny, through her father, knew Hitler well and was aware of Hitler's covert relationship with Eva Braun,her father's photographic assistant.She had a good degree of confidence in conversing with Hitler and it appears that she was a regular at the Obersalzberg Berghof. That came to an end when she was banned from the Berghof for questioning Hitler on his treatment of the Jews.)
    ltdan and Chris C like this.
  9. The Baron

    The Baron New Member

    I stumbled upon Baldur von Schirach's American connections through the genealogy research of my own family. Arthur Middleton (1681-1737) is my eight times great-grandfather, and four times great grandfather to von Schirach. So, ol' Baldur and I are fifth cousins, thee times removed. What makes it creepy to me is that he and my grandfather looked very much alike.
    Chris C likes this.
  10. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    The decision for the final solution was not taken at Wannsee which was held so that Heydrich could brief the attendees on its outlines and they could discuss its implications on their areas of responsibility. Browning and Gerlach have both covered this extensively as have others. As I said Hitler had already verbally briefed a close inner circle
  11. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    The Wannsee Conference decided the policy towards the Jewish solution where the decision was made to adopt the Final Solution and from that followed what was termed the Wannsee Protocol.

    The Wannsee Conference was held on 20 January 1942.Are you still insisting that Hitler or anyone else you could mention could brief anyone else you could mention of the outcome of Wannsee Conference in December 1941?

    The 30 copies of the minutes were distributed to the ministries and SS offices.News of the Final Solution quickly became known through the NSDP and within a few months the first gas chamber camps were established in Poland.

    Heydrich's first policy relating to the Jewish problem was a plan already in readiness ...The Madagascar Plan to deport Jews to Madagascar which was abandoned by the decision for the invasion of the SU on 21 June 1941.Hitler then gave his sanction,since there was no possibility of Madagascar being used for deporting Jews,to the evacuation of all Jews to the east as a "solution possibility".

    At Wannsee Heydrich laid out what that "solution possibility" would mean as the future policy for the treatment of the Jews....deported to the east,worked to death,the survivors weakened and be subject to specially equipped extermination camps.

    At Wannsee the subject of mixed race and Jews in mixed marriages came up...Mischlinge.... but no reclassification of Mischlinge was made. In deciding who was Jewish or not appears to have been a discretion in the hands of senior NSDAP officials such as Goering who frequently steamrollered any doubt to those below him of his declared racial identities...."I will decide who is a Jew and who is not a Jew"...see Goering's handling of Milch's situation of having a Jewish mother, a son of a mixed marriage to being declared the bastard son of his aryan father.

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