Varsity - Landing Positions of CN305 and CN364

Discussion in 'Airborne' started by VarsityGlider305, Dec 20, 2020.

  1. VarsityGlider305

    VarsityGlider305 Well-Known Member

    Can anyone help with this? I am trying to pin down the landing position of my dad's Horsa glider, CN305. He was the second pilot.

    Gliders CN305 and CN364 each carried a 25 pounder gun, both heading for LZ-P.

    The War Diary for the 53rd Light Regiment RA The Rhine Crossing
    shows the following adjacent entries in the Appendix:-

    CN305 - Map ref landing 18654835 described as “3000 x NW Bunty”
    CN364* - Map ref landing 17355145 described as “On area”

    (At paragraph 24 of the same WD, the Map Reference for “Bunty” is given as 185484)

    The gliders' map references and descriptions do not seem to tally. I have worked out that 18654835 would have been within the boundary of LZ-P. 17355145 would have been somewhere to the north west of LZ-B.

    It's my view that the two map references were somehow transposed when recorded but that the descriptions are most likely accurate. I do know that CN305 was fired upon in the approach, crashed through some trees, landed and was surrounded and fired upon again before all inside were captured (sadly two gunners were killed). The 25 pounder was recorded as lost. It seems to me that this scenario would have been less likely had they landed within LZ-P and amongst the relative protection of many other airborne troops.

    Does anyone have a view on this discrepancy or any other information about where CN305 could have landed?

    Jenny

    Edit: *CN typo corrected
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
  2. Alex1975uk

    Alex1975uk Well-Known Member

    Can only offer plotting those map references which you seem to have done already. I seem to remember this being discussed before?

    Alex
     
  3. VarsityGlider305

    VarsityGlider305 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for the offer Alex. Yes I have plotted the positions. Apologies if I have repeated myself elsewhere. It may have been sometime ago. I would however like to resolve this if at all possible, so hopefully someone can help with some new information.

    Jenny
     
  4. Alex1975uk

    Alex1975uk Well-Known Member

    Jenny,
    I tend to agree with you here but there’s no way of definitively proving it I guess.
    One grid puts it 50 yards away from Bunty and that’s only 500 yards from Div HQ, that’s not to say incoming fire wasn’t there.
    The other grid is way North and West of 7 Para’s boundary who would’ve been the closest unit to that grid when the gliders came in.
    Forgive me for asking but did your dad survive? Did he offer any thoughts on where he landed?
    I do have a decent aerial of LZ P which will cover this area I’m sure. It’s way too big to post here though.

    Alex
     
  5. VarsityGlider305

    VarsityGlider305 Well-Known Member

    Thanks Alex. Yes he did survive but was seriously wounded, taken prisoner and never talked about his experience, like so many others, so everything I know has been as a result of my own research. I've seen an account written by the BSM who was on board but unfortunately it doesn't offer any clues as to where they landed, only that once they'd landed they came under attack at close range for approx 20 minutes. It's this clue that suggests the landing took place far away from allied forces perhaps in the area you've suggested. The BSM's account also suggests to me that dad was presumed killed and therefore was left behind in the glider when the other survivors were captured. I assume he lost consciousness and was only discovered later on after he came round. Mum says he told her he remembered being taken to a shed and being given milk straight from a cow by a kindly German lady. By the way he suffered no burns so presumably the glider was set alight after he'd been removed/got himself out. That, sadly, may explain the NKG status of the two gunners who were lost in the approach and the loss of the 25 pounder.

    Jenny
     
  6. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hello Jenny,
    it was me who brought up the subject recently - I was interested in the two 25 pdrs and where they went into action - as you say, only one actually was put to use. So back then I looked up the positions where the gliders carrying them landed - give me a little time, please, maybe I can contribute something...
    Regards
    Alex
     
  7. Alex1975uk

    Alex1975uk Well-Known Member

    Jenny,
    pm me your email address and I’ll send you the aerial picture I have with gliders which covers the “Bunty” area.
    Alex.
     
  8. Alex1975uk

    Alex1975uk Well-Known Member

    Did the gliders that carried 25 pounders have yellow tails or am I making that up?
     
  9. VarsityGlider305

    VarsityGlider305 Well-Known Member

    Thanks Alex (alberk). I had hoped you might be able to join in since you clearly have comprehensive local knowledge. It would be great if you could add one or two of your local maps marked up. Look forward to seeing what you come up with.

    Jenny
     
  10. VarsityGlider305

    VarsityGlider305 Well-Known Member

    Done.

    Yes they did. Tails were painted yellow on Hamilcars CN 255-258 and Horsas 305, 307 and 364.

    Jenny
     
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  11. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Hello Jenny,
    I just did my homework... To start with, I agree that the positions for the two gliders were transposed. Otherwise this whole story would not make any sense. You said that two men were killed - and have no known grave. This is a lead I took up. Over the past months I plotted most field graves for all British airborne soldiers - using the CWGC concentration reports. There are "unknown" soldiers in the reports - they are the ones that can be correlated to those commemorated at Groesbek on panels because thy do not have graves. In the vicinity of the area where one of the gliders landed (we assume that it was CN 305, I call it "glider 2") there are field graves for three unknown airborne soldiers. In this area there is only one other site with 9 field graves, a bit further north, and two individual isolated graves a bit to the south ( one unknown and a Royal Signals soldier called Briggs) - that is all. Here's a first map as a an overview: 25 pdr glider.jpg
    These are the three "unknown" victims buried along an RAC soldier named Rothwell. Another RAC soldier is listed as "no known grave" (Trooper A G Rhodes). So he could be the third "unknown" besides two who could possibly be RA gunners:
    3 Unknown 171513.jpg

    Basically, this lends some support to the idea that the two landing positions were transposed. But it isn't any proof. Of course, in the middle of LZ "P" we find "unknown" men as well. Two were buried - a among many others who were identified - near Köpenhof, one of them was identified as RA.

    More on the tactical situation in the area outside LZ "B" will follow in a short while...
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
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  12. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    glider 2.png
    Please note that the lines represent the German grid! The area around Nienkampshof was firmly held by the Wehrmacht on March 24th and saw some fierce fighting on March 25th - units supported by assault guns were putting up a fight.
     
  13. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    The area of Nienkampshof was held by units of 7. Parachute Division. They defended the area stubbornly and from Nienkampshof even started a counterattack at 1500 hrs on the 24th against A Coy 13 Para. The company strength attack was repelled by the British, however. What this meant for gliders which landed to the north of Nienkampshof is quite clear - in the morning of the 24th they were isolated in an area dominated by the enemy. Which meant that the Germans either killed them or took them prisoner.
     
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  14. VarsityGlider305

    VarsityGlider305 Well-Known Member

    Alberk, I absolutely agree with the position you've marked as the possible location of CN305. Presumably those buried as unknown had no dog tags to identify them. It's grim to think about .

    This makes sense to me and it's good to finally get an impression of what was going on in that area. Was there something in particular in that area worth defending so fiercely? It seems likely CN305 landed right in the thick of it and had little chance of making it out unscathed. By the way what's the date of the map you've used?

    Your knowledge is truly impressive and I take my hat off to you!

    Jenny
     
  15. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Jenny - the German map is dated 1947. It is very unfortunate that the British (or the Allies) used a different grid. This is a British wartime map of the area:
    Germany 1:25,000, Dingden

    I used this British map to find the exact location and then transferred it to the German one which is finer in detail.

    What did the Germans defend? No particular feature - I believe they wanted to contain the Airborne bridgehead, prevent a breakout while waiting for German armoured reserves which were positioned a bit to the north, near the Dutch border. So the Germans needed to gain time. To bring the 15th Panzergrenadier Division and the 116th Panzerdivision into the battle against the airborne troops very quickly would have been the ideal scenario for them - but that was illusionary. The next day the British were already deploying their own armour in the bridgehead - the lesson learned at Arnhem was to drop airborne forces close enough to the own armoured troops, so that they can quickly catch up. During Operation Varsity it took the British less than 24 hours to so.
     
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  16. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    I am afraid it was worse than that.
    The men in the Graves Registration Units had a very grim task and deserve great respect for their work - which makes me wonder: Did anyone ever write about that or publish the recollections of a GRU veteran? Who was chosen for this job?
     
  17. Bedee

    Bedee Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
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  18. ecalpald

    ecalpald Chick LaPlace

    Alberk, there is a 30 minute interview of a true Canadian hero, Sgt. Gilford Boyd which addresses your question. He was attached to a Canadian Graves Concentration Unit in Northwest Europe.
    His story is very emotional. A high resolution version can be downloaded from:
    Episode 29 - Sgt Gilford Boyd - Canadian Graves Concentration Unit on Vimeo
    Usually I would say enjoy the film, but in this case I am unable to find the proper words.
     
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  19. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    Bedee - that's a good website!

    ecalpald - I will watch the interview!

    Thanks to both of you.
     
  20. VarsityGlider305

    VarsityGlider305 Well-Known Member

    Alberk, can you point me to anything that's been written (in English) about this unit's activities on the day? Do you know of any civilian accounts from this area of Hamminkeln, perhaps recorded in Herr Nitrowski's book? Alternatively do any official records exist of local civilians handing over prisoners to the authorities? Sorry for so many questions in one post!

    Jenny
     

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