Discussion in 'The Third Reich' started by Gerard, Mar 9, 2005.
Thanks for posting, both. Very interesting.
Thank you for the interesting post
Is this day a national day of remembrance in Germany? It should be.
Interesting picture doing the rounds, that I'd not seen.
Said to be an anti Nazi Rally in Berlin, 1932. Though I haven't been able to verify that.
Googling about trying to find the provenance, I see that nearly c.3000-5000 Germans & Austrians fought on the Republican side in the Spanish Civil war, including future Chancellor Willy Brandt.
Not something that I'd ever thought of before.
(I've collected & merged multiple White Rose/Sophie Scholl/Internal resistance threads into one larger home under the Third Reich forum.)
A Short Biography of Willy Brandt.
If I recall correctly Brandt was stopped and checked by the SD on route for Berlin whilst being an activist in the Resistance movement.
Being fluent on Norwegian and Swedish, he managed to preserve his cover as a Student.
Just found this travel Blog which Shows the Building in Question, which is the Art Academy in Berlin.
The link Shows a recent photograph of the exterior and an old Album photo showing a Nazi Party Rally in the area.
Google map and streetview showing the building adjacent to Berlin Cathedral.
Another book on the subject has been recommended on here in another thread:
An Honorable Defeat, by Anton Gill. German Resistance 1933-45.
I've ordered it.
White Rose members executed 22. Feb. 1943
75 years ago, Hans and Sophie Scholl as well as other White Rose members were executed.
White Rose - Wikipedia
Let me add a personal note.
The Scholls and the other students and profs, were all from Ulm, a city badly bombed later in the war. Ulm is only 30km away from my todays home and lots of commemorations will be held there tomorrow. People in Ulm will ask the same questions again. Why was Ulm still bombed? Did the allies knew about the White rose?
Thanks for opening up this subject - something I know embarassingly little about
why do you think the bombing of ulm had anything to do with 'white rose'???
I think I might have worded that wrongly.
The very daring attempt of this group od civilians from Ulm, did not prevend the bombing of civilians, is what people are saying.
Even assuming that the White Rose activities were known to Bomber Command, I believe that would be irrelevant to their target selection process. The raids were not large scale but the presence and value of military targets (truck manufacturing) would be the only consideration. Over 1,500 French towns and cities were bombed with casualties nearing 175,000 so sparing a German city, for any reason, would seem unlikely .
The White Rose leaflets were not addressed to Bomber Command,but to fellow Germans, expressing what what was known but dare not be spoken: "Today every honest German is ashamed of his government"; Thousands of Jews have been murdered in the most bestial way"; "passive resistance to topple National Socialsm", and much more.
Surprisingly, however, a copy of one leaflet was smuggled via Sweden to Britain, and reprinted as The Manifesto of the Munich Students, dropped by the RAF over Germany in June 1943. The beheading of Hans and Sophie and many others was a hard price to pay, but nonviolent resistance to oppression is an example still to be remembered after 75 years..
I strongly believe in peace and not any ilitary actions.
If you look to the Middle East, lots of military actions, and dead civilians and we still have no peace, but this should be another thread.
Just came across this interesting link on the subject - 22nd February 1943: Sophie Scholl beheaded in Munich
thanks a lot, I did not know about Freisler's end.
Whilst I have nothing but the utmost admiration and reverence for the white rose movement and their utter courage and sense of morality, I doubt the British authorities had much time to consider what little they knew in the prosecution of the war and Ulm had several important industries including two major truck factories.
Ulm was targeted only once by the RAF and that was on the night of 17/18 December 1944.It was not considered a prime target but attracted attention on account of the two lorry manufacturers centred there,......Magirius-Deutz... Deutz quality diesel engines..road transport and powered fire engines and Kassbohrer.... passenger vehicles and trailers. In addition there was a military garrison based there....the Gallwitz Barracks and other Wehrmacht depots. Ulm lies on the Danube and river traffic and facilities might also been taken into consideration.
Civilian casualties were recorded as 606.The casualties could have been higher but the Gauleiter ordered an evacuation of women and children which although planned for 18 December by the Ortsgruppenleiter was brought forward to the evening of the raid and led lead to the inner city being evacuated.
As regards German resistance against Hitler,the British authorities were never drawn into any clandestine German circles after having their fingers burnt in the Abwehr deception known as the Venlo Incident during the phoney war era.
It was thought that Hitler could only be overturned if the Wehrmacht rebelled but apart from the 22 July 1944 plot,the Wehrmacht generals maintained their oath of loyalty to Hitler to the end.
Thomas Mann honoured the White Rose group in a BBC transmission to Germany on 23 June 1943. Supporting this initiative, the 5th and final flyer was distributed by the RAF as being from the National Committee "Free Germany"..the call of the flyer was "Support the Resistance Movement,Distribute these Flyers"
As for Roland Freisler,a long standing NSDAP member, was the judge who tried the 22 July 1944 plotters with vindictive outcomes.He was killed during an USAAF air raid on 3 February 1945 while judging the Solf Circle treason trial.Some defendants were able to gain their freedom when their files were lost in the raid and consequently were released from custody.
Some time ago there was public concern raised in Germany when it transpired that Freisler's widow was drawing a war widow's pension.Despite protests the pension entitlement was not overturned.
I think I read about the White Rose resistance in one of the books mentioned on the What are you Reading thread.
It was such a tragic story, I couldn't finish reading the book.
Separate names with a comma.