Should Ex-german Soldiers Be Deported?

Discussion in 'The Barracks' started by Stich, Apr 1, 2005.

  1. Stich

    Stich Junior Member

    I live in the metro Detroit area, and in the past couple of years I've read about several different men living in the area who were found out to be ex-German soldiers and who were then deported or at least deportment procedings had been started against them. All of the men were in their 80's, and most had lived here and worked here for many decades. One claimed he was Polish and was forced into the service by the Nazis to work as a guard at concentration camps.

    I would like very much to hear from members about what they think of this. Should they be allowed to stay in country? Should they be shown no mercy and thrown out of their homes some 60yrs after the war? Is this justice?
     
  2. Pte1643

    Pte1643 Member

    It's a bit of a Political subject really.

    If they are proven to be ex-nazi party members :angry: , then maybe there's a case for deportment.

    If not, and they've been living and working in the Detroit area for the last 60 yrs, or so, then what's the harm?

    But then I'm half Jewish, so I'm not really the right person to comment. :ph34r:
     
  3. david k

    david k Junior Member

    why should ex german soldiers be deported?they served thier country right or wrong for what they believed in.any responsible for war crimes of course should be deported and brought to justice.
     
  4. Neil B

    Neil B Member

    These are not exactly 'ex-German Soldiers' there seems to be enough evidence they were guards at forced labor or concentration camps to convince a Federal Judge. They entered the US under falsified documents.
    There have been three in the last few years, one Hungarian and two Ukrainian they argue they were forced into serving, the Federal Government disagrees.
    If you do a google search for Detroit Camp guards or war criminals you can find quite a few articles.
    Simply because you dodged justice in 1945, doesn't mean justice goes away.
    Neil
     
  5. Neil B

    Neil B Member

  6. Certainly Ukranian camp guards were amongst the most barbaric from what I have read but I guess there are a couple of issues here ... first, can anything truly be gained by deporting these men after 60 years and secondly, one would hope that they have been lving with a life sentence through their conscience for the past 60 years - now they also have to live with the fact they have been identified in their communities as former camp guards and the resentment that may bring against their families.

    Of course, had my family been murdered at Auschwitz then the passing of 60 years may not have tempered my feelings.

    Whilst not particularly relevant one final point is that if these men had been more than the oily rags of the Nazi camp system they may well have been welcomed by the USA, Britain or USSR, all of whom were quick to use former Nazis when it suited - if I am not mistaken even Mengele was employed by the Americans in 1945 and this only ceased when he was given a huge brown envelope to disappear when knowledge of the depth of his crimes together with his link to the USA began to materialise.
     
  7. sappernz

    sappernz Member

    If these people were camp guards or in anway connected with the SS then deport, jail or shoot them. They desever no sympathy or compassion of any sort. So what its 60 years ago. Now they are just old mass murderers instead of young ones.
    How many people did they deprive of 60 years or even 1 minute of life.
    I am not Jewish nor had any family members in concentation camps, but I had a Father, Uncles and relations leave New Zealand to fight these bastards and some did not come back.
    Any punishment they recieve will not be enough.
     
  8. Stich

    Stich Junior Member

    Originally posted by sappernz@Apr 1 2005, 08:40 PM
    If these people were camp guards or in anway connected with the SS then deport, jail or shoot them. They desever no sympathy or compassion of any sort. So what its 60 years ago. Now they are just old mass murderers instead of young ones.
    How many people did they deprive of 60 years or even 1 minute of life.
    I am not Jewish nor had any family members in concentation camps, but I had a Father, Uncles and relations leave New Zealand to fight these bastards and some did not come back.
    Any punishment they recieve will not be enough.
    [post=32788]Quoted post[/post]

    Wow...you're awfully quick with a firing squad there pal. So even if they were camp guards NOT affiliated with the SS, in your mind they should be shot?, even though they may have been just a guard who stood his post he should be shot down like a dog?? Puhleeease. A LOT of people had family members killed, that doesn't justify going on a shooting rampage of old men. You act like your family was the only one affected by the war. Settle down there pal. :rolleyes:
     
  9. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    If they worked in the camps then they were not soldiers, even if you extend the definition of soldiers to the Waffen SS.

    If they are war criminals they should be tried. I think it is virtually impossible that anyone worked in the camps in any capacity without committing crimes against humanity, so I think if it is proven that they were guards they should be punished.

    If they truly were soldiers, then no action should be taken. I know or know of several former German WWII soldiers living in Britain who have worked hard and raised families here since 1945 and I think they should be left in peace.
     
  10. sappernz

    sappernz Member

    Stich, you say I am awfully quick with a firing squad. I am sorry I should have said make it slower with piano wire.
    All camp guards were SS and all camps were controlled by the SS. They were all affiliated.
    To say someone was just a guard who stood his post in a place of murder, rape and torture on a 24 hour basis means he was a witness to all that went on there and as he did nothing about it and stayed makes him guilty.
    Also I never said he should be shot down like a dog. That is an insult to dogs comparing them with these scum.
    I never said anything about a shooting rampage of old men at all, although shooting young murderers that have grown old is not a problem.
    I never said my family was the only one affected by war and if your inference was made by an intelligent person I might have been annoyed.
    I ask this in all seriousness Stitch, have I upset you because one of your family was an SS guard.
    You do seem somewhat protective of them.
    Please do tell.
     
  11. Stich

    Stich Junior Member

    I came here to have intelligent open-minded discussions with World War II buffs. I assumed that this was a sight where we could discuss all aspects of World War II. To those of you who demonize every German soldier in that war(sappernz <_< ) and who believes that all German's are 'evil' I have to say i'm totally shocked at this response. And so damn what if I did have relatives that fought on the German side?! :angry: (FOR THE RECORD I DON'T!)I grew up with a neighbor that was in the German Wermacht, the regular army....you know, the ones who weren't SS and for the most part were drafted kids from farms and the woods scared shitless just like American boys, but i digress...He was a super intelligent man who ran his own business and he was well loved in our town. He certainly wasn't a murderer or a crazed sadist! He was a nice man that was caught in a huge tragedy.

    I am a proud American who has had the pleasure to meet and talk to several veterans of WW II. I also had the privilege of knowing a German WW II veteran. Let me tell ya, nothing compares to a living, breathing man telling you about things that make 'Saving Private Ryan' look terribly cheesy.

    My point is....WWII should be looked at properly 60 yrs later. Enough of the German soldier as the ultimate boogeyman, he wasn't, and it's unfair to portray all of them that way. Honestly, I expected a more intelligent response here. I'm very surprised. :unsure:
     
  12. Stich

    Stich Junior Member

    In response to sappernz stating , "All camp guards were SS and all camps were controlled by the SS. They were all affiliated."
    I found this little bit of info on the web........

    Sobibor

    Sobibor extermination camp was built in March, 1942, in a forest near the village of Sobibór in eastern Poland, on the Bug River. Initially, the camp was assigned to SS-Obersturmfuhrer, Richard Thomella. In April he was replaced by Obersturmfuhrer Franz Stangl. With the assistance of Christian Wirth, Stangl expanded the camp and its killing capacity. In August, Stangl was transferred to Treblinka and was replaced by SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Franz Reichleitner. The camp operated from May 1942 until October 1943. Its five gas chambers killed an approximate total of two hundred and fifty thousand Jews. Most came from Poland and from the occupied areas of the Soviet Union, Slovakia and Western Europe (Bohemia, Moravia, Holland and France.

    Though it was the smallest of the Aktion Rhinehard camps, Sobibor gained popular national attention with the release of the 1987 made-for-television movie "Escape From Sobibor." The facts of the event are fairly depicted. On October 14, 1943 about 300 Jewish inmates assigned to Sondercommando duties carried out a well-planned revolt. Several SS and Ukrainian guards were killed along with several of the inmates. Those who escaped fled to the surrounding area

    Very few historic facts remain concerning this extermination camp. On 14 October 1943 about three hundred Jewish inmates assigned to the Sondercommando - special work assignment group at the camp rose in revolt killing several SS supervisors and Ukrainian guards. Several inmates were killed during the rebellion or during the escape attempt. The number of inmates who managed to escape is not certain but all who stayed behind were shot the next day. Following the revolt, the installations for mass extermination were destroyed and the area planted with trees. Only about fifty prisoners of Sobibor survived to tell their story to the world.

    Treblinka

    Treblinka was one of the most important extermination centers during WW II. It was located between the Polish towns of Siedlce and Malkinia, 62 miles northeast of Warsaw, Poland. Construction on the camp began in late May, 1942 and was ready for operation in July, 1942. The construction was carried out by Jewish and Polish slave labor under the direction of the SS. It was located about one and a half miles from the railway station.

    Between July 1942 to September 1942, three hundred thousand Jews were transported from Warsaw to Treblinka. Later, in May of 1943, the entire population of the Warsaw ghetto was liquidated and most were transported to Treblinka. By July 11,1945, when Soviet troops entered Warsaw, more than 700,000 Jewish men, women, and children had been murdered at Treblinka.

    Under the command of Franz Stangl, the killing process at Treblinka was very similar to that of Belzek and Sobibor. Upon their arrival by railway freight cars, the victims at Treblinka II were separated by sex and adults from children. They were told that they were being transported to other work camps but first they had to bathe and be disinfected. They were stripped of their clothing and other possessions, marched into buildings containing "bathhouses," and gassed with carbon monoxide poison produced by diesel engines and pumped in through ceiling pipes camouflaged as shower heads. The route from the selection area to the gas chambers passed through a narrow fenced-in passage known as "the tube." Many realized that they were going to their death and, when they resisted, were beaten, clubbed with rifle butts and whips by the camp staff. In September, 1942, several new and larger gas chambers were constructed.

    The staff at both Treblinka was made up of about 40 SS officers and 150 Ukrainian guards. They made extensive use of Jewish prisoners called Sonderkommandos - special work units. When these workers became too weak to do their work they were killed and replaced by younger and stronger inmates. Their job included the removal of gold teeth, dentures, and other valuables from the corpses. They were forced to transport the corpses to mass graves for burial, and later, when the bodies were exhumed, were used to burn the victim's bodies on iron grates.

    Hmmmmm....nope...looks like you're wrong sappernz, not ALL concentration camp guards were SS.
    You can go to www.mtsu.edu~baustin-holocamp.html to read more about these camps, I just took a small exerpt from the page.
     
  13. sappernz

    sappernz Member

    Stitch where do I start.
    This is a site, not a sight.
    Why do you have to say your a proud American. Are there ashamed ones.
    America has much to be proud of. It won the Civil War.
    Having met many real soldiers, not Sylvester Stallone or apologetic German neighbours, I can tell you the real ones do not talk about the hell they went through.
     
  14. Stich

    Stich Junior Member

    Having met many real soldiers, not Sylvester Stallone or apologetic German neighbours, I can tell you the real ones do not talk about the hell they went through. They just know

    Whaaaaat? They don't huh? So they hired actors to do the interviews for the 'Band of Brothers' miniseries? There's no Dick Winters or Bill Guarnere, etc.,
    Ummm, correct me if I'm wrong but they are veterans and they 'talked' about their experiences. :rolleyes:
     
  15. sappernz

    sappernz Member

    Stitch .......you found a bit of info on the web. It must be true.
     
  16. Pte1643

    Pte1643 Member

    Originally posted by angie999@Apr 2 2005, 08:51 AM
    If they worked in the camps then they were not soldiers, even if you extend the definition of soldiers to the Waffen SS.

    If they are war criminals they should be tried. I think it is virtually impossible that anyone worked in the camps in any capacity without committing crimes against humanity, so I think if it is proven that they were guards they should be punished.

    If they truly were soldiers, then no action should be taken. I know or know of several former German WWII soldiers living in Britain who have worked hard and raised families here since 1945 and I think they should be left in peace.
    [post=32790]Quoted post[/post]

    Angie, I agree.

    I also see the term SS "thrown" around alot in this coversation.

    Just for clarity...

    The Schutzstaffel (SS) were set up as a "Defence, or Protection, Force", so how exactly did they become to known to be reponsible for such attrocities, under guise of "Protection"?

    The Waffen-SS (Or Armed Schutzstaffel), were technically detached from the 'standard' SS, and were indeed the REAL bad guys.
    But then also the Waffen-SS were actually tactically connected to the Wehrmacht.

    So that leads to the question... Who were the REAL bad guys?

    Hmmm... <_<

    Mark.
     
  17. Pte1643

    Pte1643 Member

    Originally posted by Stich@Apr 2 2005, 01:10 PM
    I grew up with a neighbor that was in the German Wermacht, the regular army....you know, the ones who weren't SS [post=32794]Quoted post[/post]


    Sorry Stitch, just to clarify another point...

    The Heer was the German "Regular Army"

    Wehrmacht was the German "Armed Forces", consisting of 3 main parts...
    Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine.
     
  18. Nige GSX1400 UK

    Nige GSX1400 UK Junior Member

    Originally posted by david k@Apr 1 2005, 06:33 PM
    why should ex german soldiers be deported?they served thier country right or wrong for what they believed in.any responsible for war crimes of course should be deported and brought to justice.
    [post=32774]Quoted post[/post]

    Okay David I agree German troops who fought by the rules of war should not be deported. The problem is all too many got away after the war because the Allies (U.S. U.K. and Soviet) thought ex Nazis would be useful in the then developing Cold War.

    Now over 60 years on witnesses are almost impossible to find and most of the Nazi scum responsible lived comfortable lives before passing away in peace. I just hope God gives them their just reward. In the case of the SS and the Wehrmacht who took part in crimes eternal pain and suffering would be about right.

    I recently visited the site of a massacre by the SS on May 28th 1940 nr Wormhout Northern France where approx 100 British troops were murdered in a barn by an LSAH unit for the 'crime' of fighting too well and holding up the German advance. At one point the British had even fixed bayonets and charged the SS after running out of ammo.

    I am proud to say I also visited the spot where my Great Uncle died fighting with his anti tank unit only 500 metres from where later in the day the massacre took place. If he had been taken prisoner I have no doubt he would have been murdered too.

    Sorry about the length of my reply but your post touched a nerve.
    Nige
    May the SS burn in hell 4ever.
     
  19. Stich

    Stich Junior Member

    Sorry Stitch, just to clarify another point...

    The Heer was the German "Regular Army"

    Wehrmacht was the German "Armed Forces", consisting of 3 main parts...
    Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine.

    Yeah, I know, I was just using a generalization to separate from the SS. :P
     
  20. angie999

    angie999 Very Senior Member

    Originally posted by Stich@Apr 2 2005, 12:15 PM
    Oh, and I must say sappernz, read more books and shut your yap. You're very childish and ignorant :angry:

    Tell ya what...next time we have a battle-of-the-wits, I'll check my brain at the door...We'll start even! :D
    [post=]Quoted post[/post]

    Stich, as one of the moderators, I think I need to advise you that we do not normally have this kind of remark on the board. In my opinion, several of your posts on this thread are outside what is accepatable. Ease up on your choice of remark.
     

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