Sextons firing on the move.

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by redtop, Jan 17, 2019.

  1. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Just a general interest inquiry. Could Sextons engage targets whilst on the move and if so are there any recorded incidents?
     
  2. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    To be honest, I don't see how that would be possible.
     
  3. idler

    idler GeneralList

    If they were in an LCT - yes!
     
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  4. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

  5. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Why not possible?
    It was a tracked vehicle with a certain amount of traverse of 25 pdr. Was it not possible to operate the gun whilst moving?,
    I was just thinking of a scenario of a Sexton on move meeting advancing armour.
    Or could it be like earlier tanks move stop engage target ,move on. like a tank.

    What started his train of thought was my father with 5 RHA and mentioned in his journal of knocking out their first tank ,a German Command tank as they advanced toward Caen
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019
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  6. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    There is a parallel with the MTB and MGB flotilla tactics in the English Channel, Aegean and the Adriatic. Some paradigms were successfully challenged.

    Commander Thomas G. Fuller was one of those pioneers who abandoned the accepted practice of only firing when stopped and stationary. While that provided a stable gun platform and improved accuracy, it also made for an easier gunnery target for the enemy. He and others trained and drilled their gunners to achieve accuracy while firing at speed.
     
  7. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    My skepticism was based on the fact that they were mostly used in indirect fire, in which case they had a desired location to fire upon, which would require a certain precise elevation and traverse. Those values would be changing over time if on the move, especially if not on a road.

    I am assuming, maybe wrongly, that they were not equipped with the same sort of direct fire sights that would be in a tank.

    I wonder how the crews of the Sextons on these LCTs managed it!
     
  8. idler

    idler GeneralList

    The Sextons were capable of aimed direct fire - 5 RHA certainly got plenty of practice in at Amaye. However, I think trying that while actually moving would be very much a last resort.
     
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  9. redtop

    redtop Well-Known Member

    Not suggesting it would be good practice ,and most likely inaccurate but may be a possible last resort?
    I understand most allied tanks of this period stopped fired moved on.
    Could the Sexton do the same or was there a procedure like putting out aiming post etc.
    At Amaya the they fired over open sights but were in a defensive position.
     
  10. Attacker2

    Attacker2 Junior Member

    Not sure about firing on the move - but certainly preparing for firing. My late father took part in the action described below. Two columns of vehicles approaching each other. My father recalled the call to action 'CRASH ACTION' and the crew started to go through their drills - the Sexton crashed through a wooden gate and began engaging the enemy column.

    The following is the report of a CRASH ACtION undertaken by 90th Field Regiment RA at Mons-en-Pevele on the 3rd Sept 1944:

    'CRASH ACTION' at MONS EN PEVELE

    On Sunday 3rd September 1944 two troops of 25pdr Self Propelled Guns (Sexton/Rams) formed part of a column of 231 Inf Bde in support of the Guard Armoured Division as they moved through Northern France towards the Belgian Border. My late father was with 357 Battery (A Troop) and took part in the following 'Crash Action':

    Sunday 3 Sep. MONS EN PEVELE 7119.

    MAP: Ref 1/50,00 Sheet 74.

    357 and 465 Batteries formed part of a 231 Inf Bde column accompanying the Guards Armoured Division in a mopping up role in the rapid advance from ARRAS to BRUSSELS.

    The column order of march consisted of:

    Devons

    Dorsets

    Tp 102 A/Tank RA

    CCP

    Tp 138 LAA Bty RA

    357 Bty

    465 Bty

    LAD

    231 Bde B Ech.

    NOTE: This order of march was adopted as being the most suitable for the mopping up operations and for ease of road movement.

    Situation at Approx 1500 hrs

    Head of Devons PONT A MARQ 7223

    Tail of B Ech. MONTCREAUX 7016.

    Information received of enemy pocket estimated 200 with SP guns in area PONT A MARQ 7223. £%& Bty were deployed in the area 715180 to support the mopping up operation of the Devons.

    The column closed up and halted with the head of 465 Bty just EAST of MONS EN PEVELE. A local OP was established 200x to the NORTH.

    About 1515 hrs, this OP saw a column of approx. 8 lorries and half-track vehicles full of GERMANS at 717199 moving SOUTH from PONT A MARCQ and MERINGNES 7222. They were at first thought to be prisoners as several lorry borne columns of prisoners had been seen in the previous few days. Warning was, however, sent to 357 Bty and to the Company Commander of the nearest company of the Dorsets and 465 Bty was deployed at 724187 in a semi-covered position. Unknown to us, there was another smaller motorised enemy column approaching MONS EN PEVELE from the North West, that is from the LAFFRANDE area 7020.

    Both these German columns were GAF men from the flying bomb sites in the PAS DE CALAIS area end were making for ARRAS which had been in British hands for 3 days. Both had been 'flushed" from the PONT A MARQ area by the Devons who took over from the Armoured Grenadier Guards.

    Two Battles developed simultaneously:

    357 Bty versus the LAFFRANDE column

    465 Bty versus the MERINGNES column

    357 Bty v LAFFRANDE column.

    The Bty was deployed as “crash action” in area 715180, zero Line 360˚ about 1500 hrs.

    About 1515 hrs a warning was received from an OP that an enemy column was approaching and less than one minute later a light armoured car about 500x away and opened fire with a machine Line on the column, hitting two of our LAD vehicles and injuring 6 REME personnel who were making tea.

    Capt LAWSON in X tank immediately replied with the .50 Browning followed almost at once by the Left Section of B Tp.

    The armoured car exploded and the Section finished off the other two lorries with a total expenditure of 6 rounds. Battery and B Echelon personnel assisted by FFI promptly rounded up 1 Officer and 16 OR prisoners.

    The GPO, Lt Brown, and members of the recce party were at the head of 465 Bty and obtained a confirmed hit on a stationary armoured half-track vehicle with a PIAT at a range of nearly 300x.

    A further 15 prisoners trying to escape form 465 Bty’s battle, which was going on at the same time, were collected and all were handed over to the delighted FFI for safe custody.

    Total Battery bag: 1 Light Armoured Car, 2 Lorries. 30 Live prisoners and 6 killed or wounded.

    Battery casualties Nil, but 6 LAD wounded one of whom subsequently died.

    465 Bty v MERIGNES Column.

    Major WELLS was with CO2 in a local OP when the column was seen approaching. He immediately took C Sub Section F Tp (Sgt McSorley) and put it in action where he thought the column would enter the village. At the moment the gun arrived the leading half-track appeared dead ahed at 100x range. Sgt McSorley fired, brewed up the vehicle and killed, wounded or frightened all the occupants.

    Major WELLS then put B Sub, E Tp (Sgt Hayes) into a position near the OP and three stationary vehicles were engaged over opn sights at a range of about 100 yards and brewed up one after the other.

    Finally A sub-section, F Tp (Sgt Scott) knocked out an 88mm SP Gun which was also in the column.

    NCOs and men of the Bty, assisted by their own B Echelon and the local FFI then rounded up 65 prisoners who were marched in batches down the village street amid the jeers of the crowd who were all out in the streets in their best Sunday clothes watching the battle with much excitement.

    Total confirmed bag of 465 Bty – 1 88mm, 5 halt-tracks and 1 staff car, 65 prisoners and a further dozen dead or wounded.

    Battery casualties NIL.

    CONCLUSION.

    The final result of the battle therefore was –

    1 88mm and 8 assorted vehicles destroyed.

    Approx 15 Germans Killed and 100 prisoners.

    All ranks were delighted at the opportunity ae both demonstrating to 231 Inf Bde and themselves seeing the results of their open sight shooting. The infantry were most generous in their praise. The column then set off in the highest spirits for BRUSSELS – 60 miles away which they entered in triumph the following afternoon.
     
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  11. jonheyworth

    jonheyworth Senior Member

    Having fired the gun in a Sexton , I’d say it was possible, I’m not sure how worthwhile it would be but if you went around a corner and ran into something and had one up the spout , with the 25pdrs semi fixed ammo though it would be the HAVING one up the spout though
     
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  12. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Chances of hitting anything intended would be very very very poor and Sextons could be firing accurately very quickly after halting
    "The 31st Battery was travelling in the advance guard as the 4th Armoured Division rushed eastwards. As we passed Dunkirk the enemy guns opened fire on us. One of our FOOs ordered a quick action followed by fire orders. I was the CPO [command post officer] and immediately turned my half-track across a ditch and through a wire fence into a rather small field. I signalled visually to the GPOs to follow and also pointed out troop positions. I think I passed the original ‘line’ by compass and the SPs quickly came into position and within a minute or two I watched our shells bursting in Dunkirk."
    Canadian Military History, Vol. 16 [2007], Iss. 4, Art. 5
     
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  13. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Further according to Patrick Delaforce of 13th (Honourable Artillery Company) Royal Horse Artillery a troop of Sextons could transition from travelling at 30 mph to firing on the enemy in a few minutes
    "I was a Troop Leader in Operation Bluecoat, in a large American halftrack with a ring-mounted powerful .50 machine gun. My tasks were to lead the column down the dusty lanes, quickly choose a large field for the four Sextons and three halftracks, site and deploy in a matter of minutes. If the radio set gave me orders `ACTION, ACTION' even travelling at 30 mph I had to make lightning decisions about enemy mines, snipers, boobytraps and scatter the guns so that an enemy counter battery salvo could not knock them all out! "
    BBC WW2 Peoples War Article ID: A4440043
     

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