Personnel Vessel Crews Refused to Sail to Dunkirk

Absoloutely fascinating,
thanks for posting
Gil

 

Many MM officers were drafted int the RNVR or wavy navy, and many MM crew like engineers etc were also used in other services.

Just to confirm what Tommygunner has said. The Ministry of War Transport estimated that 800 officers and 5,500 ratings who were on the active list of the Royal Naval Reserve joined the Royal Navy in the first few months of the war. A further 2,000 Merchant Navy officers were commissioned in the Royal Navy before the end of 1943.
I remember whilst serving in HMS Ark Royal in 1962

15 years later I joined the same ship.

Regards
Hugh

 

Just to confirm what Tommygunner has said. The Ministry of War Transport estimated that 800 officers and 5,500 ratings who were on the active list of the Royal Naval Reserve joined the Royal Navy in the first few months of the war. A further 2,000 Merchant Navy officers were commissioned in the Royal Navy before the end of 1943.


15 years later I joined the same ship.

Regards
Hugh

Hello Hugh
I was a sparker in 6JA1 mess (if i remember correctly) Sad to have watched the old girl become razor blades

 

The personnel vessels report is probably the most inaccurate RN report of WWII eg MANXMAN am 2nd June berthed at the mole under air attack with no RN ships or RN personnel in sight. The ship embarked nearly 200 troops and later picked up 5 soldiers from a small boat. Eventually the Admiralty Mentioned the Master and 2 Engineers in Despatches and who would have thought CANTERBURY'S master got a DSC!! John.

 

Hi John and welcome to the forum-Can I ask what your source is?

Whilst I agree that some of the Post Dunkirk reports immediately after Op Dynamo are not 100% accurate (I guess this is to be expected really, when all things are considered), a quick look in one of my books does suggest there was a problem on the 1st June with the crewing the Manxman and Lady of Mann. I'll post the text if you are interested?

Regards
Andy

 

Hi Andy, Other Primary data, including RN and Min. of Shipping correspondence related to the PVs, IOMSPCo. minutes and personal evidence were ignored by the authors of historical accounts who were intent on highlighting the strain of MN crews. In reality on 2nd JuneTYNWALD and BEN-MY-CHREE refused an option to VOLUNTEER to sail on and the PV report fails to mention this and the men confronted with bayonets had been granted leave. The accusations re master of MANXMAN were officially withdrawn. Ramsay's 1052/2 signal even gave an unrelated option for unfit RN ships/men to opt out (some did) and it is known that somehow, LADY OF MANN received this signal and her men agreed to sail on and it now seems possible that that TYNWALD, MALINES and the BEN may have received this signal and opted out but were reported as refusing to sail. A recent document in the IWM discredits much of the personnel vessels report (which became redundant as early as 1947) and criticises the IOM Governor's intervention re the Manx ships after the Main Dunkirk Awards were Gazetted. John

 

Thanks John.

 

by John de S. Winser:

News of the attack on Prague caused repercussions on board Malines, another LNE Railway vessel, and there was unrest amongst the crews of other passenger ships also. Malines was at Folkstone where armed guards with fixed bayonets were posted on the gangways and abreat Ben-My-Chree, to prevent members of her ships company carrying out their threat to walk off, while the crew of another Isle of Man ship, Tynwald, contented themselves with shouting abuse at the sentries on the Folkstone quayside. The masters of all three vessels declined to sail for Dunkirk that evening: Malines Captain considered that his men were on the verge of revolt; that his ship required repairs to damage sustained by a grounding and during the Grafton rescue operation and that it would be too great a risk to attempt another crossing to Dunkirk in the circumstances. Accordingly he sailed his ship from Folkstone and wrote to the authorities explaining his action on arrival at Southampton. For the other two ships, and subsequently also for the same company's Manxman and Lady of Mann, largely new crews had to be found and these included volunteers from another Isle of Man vessel, Manx Maid. Some of the ships had been operating ceaselessly prior to 'Dyanmo' with the result that officers and men were approaching a condition of complete exhaustion. Replacement or supplementary naval personnel had already been sent to some other passenger steamers, in particular to Canterbury, St Seirol and St Helier in the early stages of the operation, and, more recently, to the last named sister ship, the Hospital Carrier St Julien. The master of St Seiriol was reported to have been placed under open arrest: he sailed his ship when an armed guard arrived but all members of the ship's company were later examined by a medical officer and deemed unfit to continue. An armed guard was also sent to the coaster Ngaroma, when her chief and two engineers refused to sail from Dover, and the tug Contest was deliberately run aground, to avoid carrying out naval orders. Where used at Dunkirk, the fishing vessels and pleasure craft from all along the English south coast were largely navy-manned, as their crews were not prepared to undertake the crossing. Also crewed by the Royal Navy were the RNLI lifeboats, with the exception of Margate and Ramsgate.

 

I think this passage goes some way to explain the condition of some crews working flat out during Op Dynamo and helps to understand what they went through, that said if they never stepped forward who knows what might have been:

By the morning of 30th May Ramsay's staff learned that ships could usually take more of a pounding than their crews. Men could go on for just so long, and then reached a point where nature's defence mechanism came into play. Deck officers' feet swelled so badly that their shoes had to be cut from them; engine-room staff, deafened by the peals of fearful thuds caused by exploding bombs compressing the water against the side of the hull, were no longer able to cope with signals from the bridge; men were badly scaled when steampipes ruptured; stokers with loaded shovels poised in front of an open furnace, were pitched forward and burned when a ship bucked and gyrated during an air attack; others who were thrown off their feet or lost their balance, got up bruised and often half-crazed. Steersmen forgot the course they were supposed to be following, or looked blankly at a compass whose cardinal points had become for them a vague blur. Gunners fell asleep standing by their guns; old salts, who had been at sea all their working lives-including some who had served in WW1-lost the ability to cope with the disaster. The sight of so many men blown to pieces or drowning, and of mutilated corpses and horrific wounds, was too much for them. Wills were eroded by sight, sound, smell and shock, and after three or four trips to Dunkirk some of the sailors could no longer tie a bow line or run a hawser around a pair of bitts. They cowered when they saw a Stuka peel off into a dive and sometimes screamed when they heard its bombs whistling towards their ship.



From Dunkirk, The Great Escape

 

Hi Drew,

I'll post the RNLI account of the reasons behind the RN take over of the vessels in the RNLI thread I've started here.

Regards
Ross

 

In my younger days I served with the Merchant Navy as an Engineer.

Within the company there were many old hands who had served during the war, one indeed had been involved in the the Dunkirk evacuation. Some of them had carried out acts which may be described as heroic however that act was usually unknown outwith the company. Nevertheless when we met those individuals we all knew who they were.


I remember one Senior Engineer who spent his four hour watch from the funnel level looking down on the engine and equipment. He would do a five minute walk every hour or so. The engineroom was not the place to be when the vessel was compromised. Everyone knew this was his watch style and no comment was made, absolutely the reverse.


Another used to head for the top when he heard a bang or something unusual. Never having had his experience I used to investigate the source of the bang. Again no comment was made. Something about respect, unsaid.


Another spent several weeks on a lifeboat in the Atlantic. He sailed a lifeboat toward the west coast of Africa in search of land. There were no pickups or rescues of Merchant men. He was permanently damaged but remained in service. Allowances were made but in balance we knew they were better men than us.


Although I may not have given any idea why the vessels in question may not have sailed again I am aware that there are usually two sides to each story. The sea can be an unforgiving environment and I would like to have heard their reasons. Thereagain they may not have been able to reply. As someone said here the casualty rate amongst those in service in the MM was higher than most of the other services.

 

The personnel vessels report is probably the most inaccurate RN report of WWII eg MANXMAN am 2nd June berthed at the mole under air attack with no RN ships or RN personnel in sight. The ship embarked nearly 200 troops and later picked up 5 soldiers from a small boat. Eventually the Admiralty Mentioned the Master and 2 Engineers in Despatches and who would have thought CANTERBURY'S master got a DSC!! John.

I have to agree with John. I have the document from Kew that is the subject of this thread and have found holes in it. This document does not show certain masters in a good light and by implication some crews but is a very much unbalanced account.
I am always wary of documents written too close to the events and equally those written way after events when the primary sources have passed on. Best I can say for those types of document is that it should be worthy of further research.


'CANTERBURY' Railway Ferry. Southern Railway. 2910 tons. Built in 1929. Survived the war.

London Gazette 16 August 1940 - For services during the withdrawal of Allied armies from Dunkirk.

Hancock, Charles Archibald - Captain - DSC.

Regards
Hugh

 

Following Hugh's comments, just 2 more points. Canterbury is reported as failing to sail again after being damaged on 29th May but she did a round trip on 3/4 June. This error was not noticed by the PSTO or Ramsay and was in his original 1940 Despatch to the Admiralty and was carried forward to the Gazetted 17/7/ 1947 version. With an RNR skipper, St.Seiriol is reported as not sailing again due to damage on 29th - not checked by the PSTO or STO, she was fit to sail again but the whole crew (virtually all relief men) were declared medically unfit! This error was also perpetuated in the Despatches mentioned above. The Battle Summary 41 draws attention to St. Seiriol. There are further factual errors, not to mention the grammatical and numerical ones. John.

 

Offline, the 'unknown quantity(RK) was asked to comment on later errors in historical accounts. Comment: 'There are indeed errors and they are perpetuated by authors of later accounts up to and including 2010. They include confusion re PV Mona''s Queen and ABV Mona's Isle, ABV HMS King Orry being referred to as a minesweeper, PV Fenella being referred to as a wooden vessel and a picture purporting to be the SS Tynwald of Dunkirk vintage is in fact a reversed picture of the 1946 Mona's Queen.' The pre-war Tynwald and Fenella had a sleeker appearance with a horiizontal top to the funnel; there are pictures on other I/N sites.
John.

 

Anyone further interested in this topic might like to look at the papers and pics I have posted of Capt T Wilson of the Lady of Mann - a great story with an interesting perspective on the mutiny. Goto http://bit.ly.mannww2

Paul

 

Link not working?

 

Yes - thanks for notifying me. There seems to be a problem with the site at the moment - sorry. Also I have tried embedding a link but the feature freezes so that's not working for me either. I so wish the site would allow pasting as it used to.

Paul

 

I mean a problem with dad's web site. But I can't paste anything into WW2Talk - maybe I need to change browsers.

Paul