Omaha Beach landing tables

Discussion in 'US Units' started by DJohnson, Jun 19, 2021.

  1. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    Interesting find. I did not know it was permissible—or even possible—to fire a towed 105mm howitzer from the LCT. Unfortunately the narrative did not mention recoil management of guns, or how the carriage might be anchored or braced in the deck well.

    Another deviation is that firing the guns at sea meant they must be de-waterproofed to some extent during the crossing. Usually this was done on shore. I don’t know how much time was needed to waterproof the 105mm howitzer, but a British training film claims it was 45 hours for a jeep.




    Waterproofed guns of the 32nd Field Artillery Battalion, just prior to D-Day. The breech block is encased in what appears to be Asbestos Compound 219; a standard material for waterproofing. Movie footage shows that high temperature grease was used on some parts of vehicles.

    01 Waterproofing 105mm Howitzer, 32nd Field Artillery Battalion, England, 1944.jpg
    02 Waterproofing 105mm Howitzer, 32nd Field Artillery Battalion, England, 1944.jpeg
    10 Waterproofing vehicles, 51st Highland Division, England, 1944.jpeg


    Waterproofed vehicles of 1st Division.

    03 Waterproofed vehicles, 1st Division, England, 1944.jpeg
    04 Waterproofed vehicles, 1st Division, England, 1944.jpeg
    05 Waterproofed vehicles, 1st Division, England, 1944.jpg
    06 Waterproofed vehicles, 1st Division, England, 1944.jpg

    BIG-RED-ONE WWII_PHOTOS
    World War II in Color: Build-Up of US Army Vehicles Before D-Day
    Royal Pioneer Corps & Royal Pioneer Association
    51ST (HIGHLAND) DIVISION PREPARES FOR THE INVASION OF EUROPE [Allocated Title]
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2024
  2. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    Would agree and I did not find much more about this subject. The picture below was made in the Philippines, at Cebu in March 1945. Have no idea what lessons were learned or published about the experience in Normandy and the French Riviera.

    DUKW with piggybacked 105mm howitzer - Cebu, 26 March 1945 (A) .jpg DUKW with piggybacked 105mm howitzer - Cebu, 26 March 1945 (B) .jpg
     
  3. John Hopkins

    John Hopkins Member

    Great! Thank you!
    Top photo: "Troina', "Oran" would fit the bill... guessing that, under "Oran", white square with "c", then underscored with two horizonatal bars, indicates battery "C" (??)
    Second photo: On the front towed 105 guard plate :"MT-Etna"... best guess what is printed to the left side?
    Fourth picture down: LST 134? (appears too large for LCT)
    Checked the links you provided: many, many thanks,
    john
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2024
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  4. John Hopkins

    John Hopkins Member

    Appears to be Marines... that definitely play by an entirely different set of rules.. ;-)
     
  5. Richard Anderson

    Richard Anderson Well-Known Member

    Yes, Battery C. IIRC, the horizontal bar indicated the Gun Section. 1 bar = 1st Section, 2 bars = 2d Section, et cetera.

    The names are commemorative, basically unofficial battle honors/recognition.

    Mt-Etna has another battle honor on the gun shield. It is "djebel D...". There are so many djebel's they fought over that without a higher resolution I can't figure out which one it is.

    The vehicles marked "1-X" are not Field Artillery, they are those of the 1st Division MP Platoon.

    LST 134 is at Normandy, but it is unclear what unit the truck is part of since the bumper codes are obscured.

    The other craft debarking the jeeps of the MP Platoon is an LST.

    The infantry on the beach with the howitzer in the DUKW are Army, not Marines.
     
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  6. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

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  7. Richard Anderson

    Richard Anderson Well-Known Member

    Better eyes than me. Thanks!
     
  8. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    Found this scene showing a 105mm being set-up to open fire from the LCT. Chains are visible near the gun and maybe that was the means to secure it during the shooting session. A trail from another gun is seen in the foreground at the right. Three trucks at the rear have engine hoods open for inspection.

    LCT with towed 105mm howitzer making ready to open fire on deck.jpg
     
  9. Richard Anderson

    Richard Anderson Well-Known Member

    Yes, the method used by the British for the 25-pdr in the Beach Drenching was to secure the piece with wheel chocks and chains attached to the deck eyebolts. IIRC the 25-pdr turntable was rested on timber baulks, and probably something similar was done with the 105mm firing support sections.
     
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  10. John Hopkins

    John Hopkins Member

    Wow!!
    Thank you!
    Would the hood markings give a hint of the unit? Water in the background looks relatively calm... not Omaha? (although the white house in the distant background...?)
    Regardless, still very useful image.
    With 5 deuces, 4 guns, 2 3/4T trucks, 3 Jeeps, one with trailer, shoe-horned in an LCT(6) 127/653 (according to pg. 17 of 52; Landing Tables)... how did they get the guns turned around? (or did they???... firing over the head of the LCT Pilot... not likely?)
    The muzzle of another gun can be seen, centered, above the load of the right-hand truck.
    Many thanks,
    john
    p.s. where/how did you find this?
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2024
  11. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    There is land behind the ship and not much traffic on the water, so I will guess the picture was made in the United Kingdom.
     
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  12. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    Seems to me that a better choice for engaging targets on shore was the M4 tank with 105mm howitzer. Do you know if this was investigated?
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2024
  13. Richard Anderson

    Richard Anderson Well-Known Member

    No, because the M4 105mm was just arriving. The first were issued to units in Normandy in the first week of July. The tank Battalions that landed in Normandy had M4 75mm issued to their "Assault Gun" units, usually the first dozer tanks issued.
     
  14. Richard Anderson

    Richard Anderson Well-Known Member

    That is an LCT 5 in the photograph.

    Sorry, but I've been a bit of an idiot. In going back to see how the British did it with 25-pdr I suddenly remembered they did not do it with 25-pdr. I haven't found the report, but at some point they realized that trying to fire the 25-pdr from its field carriage was too complicated - fitting all the guns, tractors, and limbers on the LCT just didn't work. So in typical British fashion they simply re-equipped all the field regiments of the assault divisions, 3 British, 3 Canadian and 50 Northumberland with SP, most with M7 105mm howitzers Lend-Leased or with Ram (Sexton) 25-pdr from Canada.

    Again, if the 32d FA did fire from their LCT on D-Day it was very off the cuff. It did not follow the assault plan and would have been very difficult to implement given the pieces were limbered. I suspect the photo is of a pre D-Day experiment, when they were trying to resolve how they could implement the beach drenching with the 105mm M7A1 towed howitzer.

    The second problem they had with the towed 105mm M7A1 was that its prime mover was wheeled, and wheeled vehicles were theoretically not to be used in the assault. I suspect the only reason the 32d FA did not land in DUKW was because they were not considered as first tide assault, but were supposed to be 2d tide reinforcements.

    Again, why the VII Corps made the obvious choice but the V Corps did not, I do not know.
     
  15. Raymond Kociuba's account of shooting towed guns from LCT on D Day is a classic example of conflated memories.

    As suspected by Rich, such shooting did occur during trials (when the various photos/films were shot) but definitely not on the Day. It would have been impossible from LCT(6) with their D Day load anyway.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2024
  16. John Hopkins

    John Hopkins Member

    "conflated memories": most unfortunate.
     
  17. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    The battalion S-3 journal should tell us when the opening shot was fired by 32 FA.
     
  18. Richard Anderson

    Richard Anderson Well-Known Member

    I looked at the 32 FA Journal for June 44 and only the Daily Summary (AAR) looks like it was retained. The actual Daily Journal and File the Summary was written from does not appear to have been retained, which sadly is fairly common for WW2 U.S. Army records. You can double-check by accessing the First Division Museum online archives.
     
  19. EKB

    EKB Well-Known Member

    Report 741st TB, inability to secure M4 tanks with 105mm, Maj. Jack H. Browder, XO (3 May 1944).png
     
  20. Richard Anderson

    Richard Anderson Well-Known Member

    Exactly. There were zero in depot in the ETOUSA as of 1 June 1944. 166 were received in June and 11 in September. To supply a requirement of 168 as of 1 September. With 10 lost in the interim.
     

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