member of the BEF but return date doesn't make sense

I have posted several links into trying to find out my grandfathers ww2 history on this forum and forgiv me if i am boring anyone but i have a query over his BEF days , well to be exact his return to the UK for as i understand it the majority of British troops were returned to the UK from Dunkirk by the 4th of june but my grandfathers record states the 10/06/40 and if this is correct does this mean he returned via another exit from France possibly or is this more likely as i expect a returned to unit date after all the mess that happened and just the date that they could clearly state that he was confirmed back in the country. many thanks in advance . phil

 

Hi Bobs grandson,

About 140,000 members of the BEF were saved from other parts of France after Dunkirk. The main evacuation ceased at the date the Armistice came into force 25/6.
A quarter of a million troops and civilians were saved during those three weeks, mostly by merchant ships . If you wish I can list those ships that sailed on the 10th, though there will be quite a few.

Roy

 

I have posted several links into trying to find out my grandfathers ww2 history on this forum and forgiv me if i am boring anyone but i have a query over his BEF days , well to be exact his return to the UK for as i understand it the majority of British troops were returned to the UK from Dunkirk by the 4th of june but my grandfathers record states the 10/06/40 and if this is correct does this mean he returned via another exit from France possibly or is this more likely as i expect a returned to unit date after all the mess that happened and just the date that they could clearly state that he was confirmed back in the country. many thanks in advance . phil

Further to Roy's post.

Your Grandfather probably returned from Western France as many did returning from Cherbourg,St Malo, St Nazaire (ref the loss of the Lancastrian on 17 June 1940).Brest may have also been a port of evacution.Elements of the BEF and RAF Advanced Air Striking Force were directed to withdraw to these ports when the inportant decision to withdraw from France was made.Some units were directed intially to Nantes,then on to St Nazaire.

The most south western port used and this was used for the stragglers,ie its use was arranged late into the chaos prevailing at the time, was Point de Grave,across the Gironde from Royan at the north of the Medoc.Here withdrawal was much later than early June 1940 and would possibly be the final evacuation by sea..Others travelled south as individuals or in small groups to Marseilles, without formal instructions in an effort to escape the "bag".

The key to this is your Grandfather's service record which possibility could fill in the unknowns.Knowing his entry port into Britain would give an indication of the part of France he was evacuated from.As I see it,these returning units,despite the chaos at the time were accounted for at their point of entry to Britain,fed and watered and then directed to reception units via troop trains.Some were picked up by military transport and other individuals travelled on trains by warrant. Your Grandfather's service record should indicate his entry port back in Britain and his instructed destination to his reception unit/arrival at the reception unit.

Should be interesting to reveal the history of his movements.

 

Thanks for the replies . I did realise that the BEF continued fighting in france after dunkirk but the reason i questioned the date was that it was thought by my family that he had been evacuated from dunkirk but is suppose that this may have just been assumed as its where most people presume all the BEF were evacuated .
Harry Ree my grandfathers service record only states dates for overseas service and transfer dates to different units and nothing else . No particulars to entry into britain or such like . But i did get this via my uncle and maybe this isnt all the records that the army have on him i really dont know ? i shall have to get in touch with my uncle and find out more and if indeed this is all the info there is . many thanks phil

 

Hi Bobs grandson,

About 140,000 members of the BEF were saved from other parts of France after Dunkirk. The main evacuation ceased at the date the Armistice came into force 25/6.
A quarter of a million troops and civilians were saved during those three weeks, mostly by merchant ships . If you wish I can list those ships that sailed on the 10th, though there will be quite a few.

Roy

Thanks Roy , i may come back to you on that one . phil

 

Who was he serving with in France?

 

Who was he serving with in France?

The military corps of police 109 company according to his army record . phil

 

I don't have a 109 Coy in France. Any other clues? When did he arrive in France?

I'm thinking 52 Div or attached to another Coy? CMP might be able to help-He's got a CMP/RMP website.

 

The first mention of 109 Provost in the NA war diaries seems to be from July 1940 onwards, as part of Home Forces (they seem to have been in Northern Ireland).

The National Archives | The Catalogue | Full Details | WO 166/5908

It seems quite possible that members of CMP could have been quickly attached to units for service in France but then this should be reflected somewhere in his records. As Drew has suggested, he may well have been part of the 2nd BEF which would have meant quite a short stay and probably in and out via Cherbourg.

This is a case where it would be really useful to see a scan of the Service Records as there may be something of significance tucked away in the margins.

You posted this on another thread:-

"Deemed to have been enlisted into Royal Engineers embodied territorial army and posted to 1st battalion 18/10/39
Transfered to military corps of police and posted to 109 company 1/12/39"

This raises some questions regarding the accuracy or completeness of the transcription as Royal Engineers didn't have battalions and "Military Corps of Police" cannot be the original word order. The battalion in question must be from another unit, probably from an infantry regiment.

Without sight of the records, it's all guesswork really.

 

Unfortunatly that is all i have from his records apart from the overseas service date was the 8/12/39 so only one week after the supposed transfer from RE to the redcaps and yes your right it cant be the 1st battalion as RE have squadrons but unfortunatly that is the information i have .
I take it that it should be the corps of military police and not military corps etc ?
I dont know if it may be worth asking for another copy of his military records as maybe this one is full of mistakes but i am guessing that i will get the same record ?

 

In 1939/40 the RE were companies and the Police were Corp of Military Police.

 

did you get a typed out sheet of dates or scans of the actual documents?
It is just a typed out sheet im afraid

 

In 1939/40 the RE were companies and the Police were Corp of Military Police.
Oh i thought the royal engineers were squadrons or is that a larger unit than a company?

 

Can you post a scan of this document for us to look at?

 

Can you post a scan of this document for us to look at?
Im afraid i dont have a scanner , i could try taking a photo but im not sure how well that would come out . phil

 

Thanks for posting that-Do you know who typed it up?

I think your best bet would be to pay £30 to the MoD and get a copy of his original service records.

 

That's a Ministry of Defence logo isn't it ? Unfortunately, the 'summary' from the records seems to have been delegated to an NVQ student on work experience. No-one who had worked there for more than a fortnight could extract information so haphazardly and inaccurately.

It is more normal now (perhaps because scanners and copiers have improved) to receive actual copies of documents. At the very least, there should be a 'Service and Casualty' form which will contain many abbreviations but also a lot of information. The person who provided the document which you have was clearly not up to interpreting them.

If you have the co-operation of the person who originally applied, it would be worth asking them to request a full extract as the document supplied was not sufficient. If that doesn't work then you may need to make a formal second application but do insist on copies. The full records will help enormously. The MOD does have the information that you need.